Wesquire Posted March 23, 2015 Share Posted March 23, 2015 (edited) What are your opinions on how strictly rules should be followed at club level matches? If someone wants to run their USPSA gun that would be SSP or ESP legal except it is 1-2 oz heavy, should they be allowed to do that? Should PF be tested? Allow stippling in SSP? Or should you just try to keep things within a reasonable range and leave the strict rules to the bigger matches? Edited March 23, 2015 by Wesquire Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MWP Posted March 23, 2015 Share Posted March 23, 2015 Rules are for all matches, and should be enforced the same. IDPA now has a division where guns that aren't legal for any division can still shoot club matches. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ickus Posted March 23, 2015 Share Posted March 23, 2015 Rules are THE rules, No one like's a cheater... Play fair Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wesquire Posted March 23, 2015 Author Share Posted March 23, 2015 Rules are THE rules, No one like's a cheater... Play fair I'm more talking about people that unknowingly break the equipment rules. Tons of people come to matches with handloads that wouldn't make PF, but there's no chrony and they might have no idea what the PF is. If there is a question, is it worth bringing out a scale and chrony? Should you just give them the benefit of the doubt....or just throw them into NFC? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
racknrider Posted March 23, 2015 Share Posted March 23, 2015 At tier 1 matches you're pretty much on the honor system. As long as someone isn't grossly in violation then just have fun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
solaritx Posted March 23, 2015 Share Posted March 23, 2015 (edited) And there is the problem: One side says that the rules are the rules and by gosh enforce them. The other side is less strict. My take: At the club level, we are providing entertainment in a safe and fun manner to allow individuals to use potentially deadly weapons in a manner that builds on their gun handling skills. If it is not safe....they will not return (and I would not either). If it is not fun....they will not return (if the positives don't outweigh the negatives). New individuals (and those still learing the game) need a place that they can learn, experience, grow and enjoy. At the club level, MD's, SO's and experienced shooters are mentors and teachers of the sport (or should be). We all learn in different manners. Some learn well from the "in your face, yelling Army Sarge type" and others learn better from the experienced and kind teacher that works with one to make them better in the subject they are learning. For shooters to keep coming back, at the club match level.....we all have to take a role as mentors to enforce the rules in a manner that does justice to the experienced shooter while at the same time educates and brings along the new shooter so that they can quickly grow into a member of IDPA that understands and complies with the IDPA rules. One also has to be mature enough to know the difference. JMO Garry Newton Edited March 23, 2015 by solaritx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rowdyb Posted March 23, 2015 Share Posted March 23, 2015 I'm gonna be out of character here and say "it depends". Build illegal stages 'cause they're more fun? No. Shoot under pf ammo? No. Let a new shooter shoot their first match without a cover garment and not give them a PE per stage, sure. Let someone who has modified a gun that wouldn't fit in any class shoot in NFC? Sure. Let someone shoot in their USPSA rig and shoot the targets out of order, not in cover and with no cover garment. Sure, but collect all the PE's incurred. Break the 180? Never. Run around or reload with finger on trigger, of course not. The OP mentioned a SS or Limited gun that might be overweight. If you don't weigh it you don't know. Let them shoot it in ESP on their word. Bring a calibrated scale as part of your match, then maybe they do end up in NFC. Should pf be tested? Doesn't hhhaave to be locally. But why not? If you wanna know set up a chorno stage UNANNOUNCED and run it. Other wise it's just conjecture. Normally shame and teasing of the folks shooting obviously low pf ammo does the trick. Stippling on your SSP gun? Catch it at registration or just scratch out SSP on their scoresheet and write ESP and explain the deal to them. Follow the rules but deal with each person uniquely. Keeping safety first and using the moments to teach. Not to degrade or belittle. I was at an indoor match, not idpa, last week where people were making fun of other people in a way where they left the match. Yeah, we are all grown adults but have a bit of common decency in how you treat your fellow beings. So what if someone is overboard tatcital timmy? So what if someone is all raced out gamer? Keep that crap to yourself if you don't know the person well enough to do it to their face. Same goes with enforcing the rules, have enough people skills to know when to be firm, when to let something slide into a teaching moment and not be a rule book nazi or overbearing Ahole. At most matches everyone is a volunteer, so follow the golden rule. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hangin Posted March 24, 2015 Share Posted March 24, 2015 Rowdyb I couldn't agree with you more. I think that some people forget the main goals are to have safe fun and continue to grow the shooting sports. Not all rules allow both to happen at all times. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ickus Posted March 24, 2015 Share Posted March 24, 2015 BRAVO ZULU . . . Rowdyb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davsco Posted March 24, 2015 Share Posted March 24, 2015 i did an idpa match at a new (for me) club last year and they want anyone new to the premises to sit thru the safety/rules briefing, which is fine. the MD or whomever he was that lead the briefing was a total prick, almost to the point of appearing to have the intention of dissuading the newbies from staying, throwing arcane rules out and the like which just confused the new (to idpa) guys that were literally shaking their heads thinking they were in way over their heads and ready to leave. when he stepped away I talked with the newbies and said it was way easier than he made it out to be, just squad up, go last, ask questions and follow what the other shooters do. there are a lot of people out there whom are afraid of trying new things. MD's and RO's and even fellow competitors can make or break their first attempt by being overly picky and rude, or helpful and nice. give newbies a mulligan or two, letting them know what the rules are and that they'll need to be followed going forward. of course safety rules must always be followed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillR1 Posted March 24, 2015 Share Posted March 24, 2015 Interesting concept... "1.1.1 All IDPA rules must be followed for every match at every tier" That's pretty clear IMO. IDPA expects the rules to be followed no matter what size the match is. If the match is advertised as an IDPA match, then shooters should know what to expect as far as the rules. I'm not in favor of bypassing the rules for new shooters. However, there are ways to NICELY explain to the new folks why they were given a PE and what to do to avoid it next time. They can still get the PEs they've earned and not feel like the SO was some pompous a$$ with a chip on his shoulder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wesquire Posted March 24, 2015 Author Share Posted March 24, 2015 Alright. Good discussion. I agree with enforcing all rules that give a competitive advantage. I just think it is silly when there's an argument about a glock backplate at a local match. How about the NFC division, do you think that uspsa belts/holsters/mag pouches should be allowed? As long as they are safe I don't see the issue. You could say it muddies the whole sport, but doesn't the entire division do that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chuck s Posted March 24, 2015 Share Posted March 24, 2015 For NFC, sure, USPSA rigs are fine Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wesquire Posted March 24, 2015 Author Share Posted March 24, 2015 (edited) For NFC, sure, USPSA rigs are fine Don't the rules say that all other equipment rules besides the guns are the same? 8.2.7.3 Edited March 24, 2015 by Wesquire Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kaiserb Posted March 24, 2015 Share Posted March 24, 2015 What are your opinions on how strictly rules should be followed at club level matches? If someone wants to run their USPSA gun that would be SSP or ESP legal except it is 1-2 oz heavy, should they be allowed to do that? Should PF be tested? Allow stippling in SSP? Or should you just try to keep things within a reasonable range and leave the strict rules to the bigger matches? Can I shoot my MP5 at your USPSA matches? Thought I would ask. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wesquire Posted March 25, 2015 Author Share Posted March 25, 2015 What are your opinions on how strictly rules should be followed at club level matches? If someone wants to run their USPSA gun that would be SSP or ESP legal except it is 1-2 oz heavy, should they be allowed to do that? Should PF be tested? Allow stippling in SSP? Or should you just try to keep things within a reasonable range and leave the strict rules to the bigger matches? Can I shoot my MP5 at your USPSA matches? Thought I would ask. That's a great argument. Also, I've never even shot a uspsa match Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChuckS Posted March 25, 2015 Share Posted March 25, 2015 What are your opinions on how strictly rules should be followed at club level matches? If someone wants to run their USPSA gun that would be SSP or ESP legal except it is 1-2 oz heavy, should they be allowed to do that? Should PF be tested? Allow stippling in SSP? Or should you just try to keep things within a reasonable range and leave the strict rules to the bigger matches? Can I shoot my MP5 at your USPSA matches? Thought I would ask. No stock, fore grip, and shoot single action, you are good to go in either limited (minor) or open (minor or major) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robport Posted March 25, 2015 Share Posted March 25, 2015 (edited) I know we've let someone shoot a .22 conversion kit for no score rather than make him go 60 miles to get his real one. I know we've let USPSA shooters (2 as far as I know) shoot in their full kits. I don't know, if they were scored or not. I also remember how stressful it was to come out for the first time, having read about it, but really not knowing what to expect. I walked in by myself the first time and it took a while to decide to do that (usually we get groups of at least two). Balancing fun, learning opportunities and competition isn't easy for a match director. I also think too many people show up expecting to win their first time and don't come back, when they show up at the bottom of the pack. It can be a little humbling, when you are new (hell, it still is...lol). I had researched it enough that I showed up with three expectations: Don't shoot yourself Don't shoot anybody else Put all your rounds in the bullet trap. Quickly I added: Don't get disqualified (haven't yet, but still may someday, so I keep that one) Over time I've been able to add a lot of rules that have to do with points...but it has been an evolutionary process. New shooters aren't there yet on their first few trips, so I agree with Rowdy...it depends. The lack of flexibility during club events will just run new shooters away and unless they are natural virtuoso's, they aren't going to threaten the top shooters anyway. Teach them what they need to know and then enforce it. ...and the regulars that stick bullets in the top rubber layers of the bullet traps, walk up, pull the bullet out, hand it back to them and rag on them for it. Edited March 25, 2015 by robport Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daytona955i Posted March 27, 2015 Share Posted March 27, 2015 I'm not saying it's okay to break the rules, but we have allowed rules to be broken in club matches, but always on the side of something being harder, not easier. For example, if we set up a stage and end up having extra no-shoots, or headshots/strong hand only at 12 yards, it's going to (hopefully) make us that much better when we go to shoot major matches. We don't tend to go out and do this on purpose, but if someone doesn't build a stage according to all the rules, we do our best on the group walk-through to set it right. We're not throwing out stages or anything. We'll also never turn someone away for shooting for equipment issues. We'll explain what's going on, and what it means, but stippling isn't going to be a huge competitive advantage for new shooters. Someone that has been around long enough to know better? You're shooing ESP today, friend. I'm not sure when you cross from new to old pro, but thankfully we have a good honest group and those things have always worked out. For guns, NFC at club matches is really the catch all for gun related issues. Ported barrel? Mounted light? Shoot in NFC, it's not like you're getting a trophy anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tarkeg Posted March 28, 2015 Share Posted March 28, 2015 (edited) For NFC, sure, USPSA rigs are fine Don't the rules say that all other equipment rules besides the guns are the same? 8.2.7.3 Yes. So no, USPSA rigs are not fine. Edited March 28, 2015 by Tarkeg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bkreutz Posted March 28, 2015 Share Posted March 28, 2015 I think there should be some "leeway" for real newbies. IMO a competitor with a full USPSA rig doesn't fit that definition. They've shot enough (granted, not IDPA) to know about rules and should have checked them out before showing up, and if they have a full USPSA rig, dollars to donuts they have IDPA legal holster and mag carriers lying in their gun room. I can see letting the gun go into NFC if it doesn't fit into a proper classification. I also believe that all the rules should be followed at the club level. Nothing worse than having a shooter show up to a major match and get procedurals and then say. "we do that at our club match all the time", not fair to the shooter. One thing I wish IDPA would relax is the "have to be a member of IDPA to shoot the second match". I think some shooters need more than one taste to know if they want to continue. On the other hand (I sound like Tevye now) the membership fee is so cheap, it's easy just to join, if they don't like it, don't renew. The idea is to introduce new shooters to the sport. Not scare them away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rowdyb Posted March 28, 2015 Share Posted March 28, 2015 i have never ever seen a club enforce that rule about having to join by your second match. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bkreutz Posted March 29, 2015 Share Posted March 29, 2015 i have never ever seen a club enforce that rule about having to join by your second match. Wish I could say that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
45 Raven Posted March 29, 2015 Share Posted March 29, 2015 Here's the problem, in my opinion. You enforce the rules at club level matches and ensure all the competitors follow them. Or you decide to bend the rules a bit on one issue - let's say it is holsters. Next month it becomes not using concealment. Then it becomes non-regulation stages of fire. Then it becomes firearm modifications. You get the picture. I'm not saying it isn't okay to bend the rules or make them up as you go in the name of fun, as long as all the shooters are safe. But if you are going to do that, then don't call the sport IDPA. Or USPSA. Or IPSC. Call it "Combat Shooting". Or "Fun Shooting" There's an old cowboy saying that applies here: "You can put your boots in the oven, but it don't make 'em biscuits".. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandbagger123 Posted March 29, 2015 Share Posted March 29, 2015 i have never ever seen a club enforce that rule about having to join by your second match. IDPA makes money by membership unlike the other sport that has an ongoing cash flow from classifiers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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