WidowsSon683 Posted March 23, 2015 Share Posted March 23, 2015 I have a question for the 3gun open shooters. How many of you actually use a second optic/red dot on your rifle, and what is a decent one on a budget for a newish 3gunner. And by budget I mean $100-150. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmiller Posted March 23, 2015 Share Posted March 23, 2015 You could get a primary arms for that money. I don't know that I would trust it. My problem is budget+open=does not compute:) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RiggerJJ Posted March 23, 2015 Share Posted March 23, 2015 Used you may find a good one, JPoint or the like, but don't waste your money on a cheap $100 Chinese knockoff, it won't last. Otherwise, a New decent one will start around $250. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LoganbillJ Posted March 23, 2015 Share Posted March 23, 2015 I run a Burris Fast Fire 3 on my open rifle as a secondary. Its use will depend on the match. Some matches have gone to the one distance per stage for rifle. Hoser on one long range on the next. For that you can just dial your optic. I agree with everyone else, stay away from the "budget" optics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doug H. Posted March 23, 2015 Share Posted March 23, 2015 (edited) You will need a dot and a mount, but still is doable around $150 with Primary Arms type sights. Not sure how long they will last but I've had problems big name brands too. Only dot sight I've run for years without a problem is the Aimpoint H-1 but you're not going to get one of those for $150. I like using the side dot on stages that mix long range and short range targets. It also allows me to set my power at the beginning of the stage and not have to worry later on if I'm on the right power. Doug Edited March 23, 2015 by Doug H. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WidowsSon683 Posted March 23, 2015 Author Share Posted March 23, 2015 This is exactly why I hate asking for advice on this forum. Everybody is always ready to tell you youre cheap or youre wrong. Apparently nobody on this damn site remembers what it was like to start out on a budget. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blairmckenzie1 Posted March 23, 2015 Share Posted March 23, 2015 thats some pretty solid advice from some well seasoned 3 gunners... if budget is the driving force why not shoot limited or tac ops? open is not cheap, hell, 3 gun is not cheap.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flatland Shooter Posted March 23, 2015 Share Posted March 23, 2015 (edited) Watch the classifieds here and on other websites (eBay, Gunbroker, Texas Gun Trader for examples) and good deals do pop up. Last two Burris Fastfire 3's I bought were both under $165 NIB and delivered. The last time (and only time) I bought a cheap RDS it was for an airsoft pistol. It lasted around 6 weeks. I've not had a Burris FF fail so far. Bill Edited March 23, 2015 by Flatland Shooter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michael1778 Posted March 23, 2015 Share Posted March 23, 2015 (edited) I run a Burris Fast Fire 3 on my open rifle as a secondary. Its use will depend on the match. Some matches have gone to the one distance per stage for rifle. Hoser on one long range on the next. For that you can just dial your optic. I agree with everyone else, stay away from the "budget" optics. I've run the FastFire 3 in an inexpensive Weaver offset mount for a couple of seasons. I use the offest mini-RDS in every match. Not on every stage, but in every match. My only complaint about the Burris FF3 is that the on/off switch (the only control for, that matter) is on the LEFT side. If you're a righty like me, then you'd have the mini-RDS over to the right. That could be interference from the main scope. That has been an issue for me in primary optic selection, mounting position, mount selection, and scope accessories like a switchview lever, etc. It's all workable in the end, but you have to be careful not to buy something that you can't use and sell it off at a loss. This is exactly why I hate asking for advice on this forum. Everybody is always ready to tell you youre cheap or youre wrong. Apparently nobody on this damn site remembers what it was like to start out on a budget. If people are trying to caution the OP about false economies with items that are too inexpensive to maintain a minimum standard of longevity, that is not people telling you that you are "wrong" or "cheap." Quite the opposite, we are focusing on the value for the potential dollars spent by the advice seeker. I'm of the opinion that Open/Unlimited isn't the wallet buster that many make it out to be. In particular, the "Tac Optics" crowd that goes for super tricked out Benelli M2 shotguns and expensive 1-6x or 1-8x optics really need to get out a pencil and paper to see how quickly that all adds up. To my point: Yes, my pistol is more expensive than Factory or Practical, but only by the cost of my slide mounted mini-RDS. It's a S&W M&P CORE. The Trijicon RMR is the only cost above what you would get for Practical ($602 today on OpticsPlanet.com) Shotgun, I run an Akdal MKA-1919XN (bought previously) with lots of Tooth & Nail parts. Let's say that we just buy their race-ready 1919 offering straight away, like I wish that I had done. That's $1699 before shipping. Four mags, a case, and loads of good mods to the gun to be 922r and race-ready. Slap on an optic and go. I'll select the EOtech XPS-2 version that they offer, also. Just a convenience. That's an additional $479. Total for a *smoking* Open shotgun = $2178. Now let's do a Benelli M2 for comparison. One expensive way is get your own M2 then send it to Taran Tactical. GunBroker has a 21" M2 today on sale for $1299 (Auction Item 474404746). Then the full blown Taran Tactical M2 package is another $1349 ( That total is $2648). A less expensive way is take that gun and tack on some things like a Roth XM2BE monotube (10 round) for $199 and then add on a XS sight on the vent rib and some other optimizations by a gunsmith. Based on my own experience with my VersaMax gunsmith job by a well-known smith that would be about $450, more if you lighten the bolt. So lets call it about $500. So, the "More reasonable M2" package is $2000, give or take a buck. Shell caddies would add more, but you really need a way to hold the Akdal mags, so that's a wash. Then we come to the rifle. On my Open gun I have a bipod and an offset mini-RDS that are the only things different from a Practical class rifle. My Harris bipod and integrated QD mount is $220. Burris FastFire 3 is about $269 when you add in the Weaver mount. I'll assume primary scope mounts and switchviews are identical cost across classes. My primary optic is a little on the "long" side: a Vortex Viper PST 2.5-10x44mm SFP for $599 today at Optics Planet. Hmmm, let's try a fancy version of a 1-6x with the Vortex Razor HD II 1-6x. That's $1299, also at Optics Planet. Let's summarize the cost differences. Pistol: Open/Unlimited loses by the price of the mini-RDS = 609 Shotgun: T&N Akdal minus the Reasonable M2 = 2179 - 2000 = 179 Rifle: (220+269+599) - 1299 = -211 Total Increased Open Cost = 609 + 179 - 211 = $577 I can live with that. But, Factory (formerly Limited) is cheaper from the get go. But, if you know that you want to shoot open or that you "have to" shoot open for some reason (like how your eyes work.....my primary reason) it doesn't have to bust the bank. Final thoughts to OP......you need to plan carefully so you don't buy something now and then take a loss on it later. That's the big trap in this hobby as well as my other hobby (photography); buying incrementally in quality until you finally reach the end state that would have been cheaper to get in one step. Tripods are the classic case of that incrementalist (read "cheapskate") approach to photography that busts your wallet more than buying it properly for your needs the first time. Good luck. For your offset RDS question, I think the Burris FastFire 3 should be the lowest price option you consider. I hope it all goes well for you. PS - any vendors or web sites mentioned are listed for reference purposes. I am not affiliated with any of them in any way. Just showing my data supporting my calculations. Thanks. "PPS" - Open is hilariously fun to shoot, in my opinion. Edited March 24, 2015 by michael1778 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doug H. Posted March 23, 2015 Share Posted March 23, 2015 This is exactly why I hate asking for advice on this forum. Everybody is always ready to tell you youre cheap or youre wrong. Apparently nobody on this damn site remembers what it was like to start out on a budget. Don't worry about asking questions here, not all of us are wealthy and have to watch how we spend our resources. One thing about buying "budget" items for competition shooting, sometimes it's better not to buy anything than to spend your money on something that doesn't work well and can't be sold. Almost anything shooting related that is expensive can be easily sold to recoup the majority of your investment. Ask the questions, weigh the answers and then decide what you can and can't afford. Doug Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ziebart Posted March 23, 2015 Share Posted March 23, 2015 I would rather not have a side dot than have one that I did not trust. Side note, I went with a tube gun and a speed bead FF3 for my shotgun. Ended up taking it off because I could not get it to hold zero. My slugs were more accurate with just using a bead and vent rib. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RiggerJJ Posted March 24, 2015 Share Posted March 24, 2015 This is exactly why I hate asking for advice on this forum. Everybody is always ready to tell you youre cheap or youre wrong. Apparently nobody on this damn site remembers what it was like to start out on a budget. This is exactly why I hate giving advice here, people not wanting to hear the answer that they know is going to be given. Cheap red dots are worth less, buying one will give you nothing but grief. I'm done... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toothandnail Posted March 24, 2015 Share Posted March 24, 2015 I agree 100% with Michael1778 and RiggerJJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve RA Posted March 24, 2015 Share Posted March 24, 2015 (edited) I tend to agree with the buy once - cry once theory (most of the time). However, there are some inexpensive items that are better than the price might initially suggest. One thing I have had good luck with is a Primary Arms red dot which I've had on my Daisy Avanti 747 pellet pistol. I've had it for over a year and a half, shot around 10K of pellets thru it (the 747, not the sight ) and had no trouble with the red dot. I'd imagine it would live quite well on a .223 rifle. https://www.primaryarms.com/Primary_Arms_Red_Dot_Reflex_Sight_p/parrs01.htm Edited March 24, 2015 by Steve RA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RiggerJJ Posted March 24, 2015 Share Posted March 24, 2015 This is exactly why I hate asking for advice on this forum. Everybody is always ready to tell you youre cheap or youre wrong. Apparently nobody on this damn site remembers what it was like to start out on a budget. Sorry, one more comment. This is NOT a "damn site". It is a wealth of information for those who choose to use it as presented, helpful information, and not bitch about getting some that they don't want to hear. We all should thank Brian for keeping it alive. jj Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chase214 Posted March 24, 2015 Share Posted March 24, 2015 Has anyone tried the leupold deltapoint pro Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigcalidave Posted March 24, 2015 Share Posted March 24, 2015 The Fastfire 3 is as cheap of a RDS you should get, and just a little bit higher than your budget. I've got them on a bunch of guns, without a failure. I saw one break, but it took such a hard hit that it nearly tore the lens off. That would have killed almost anything. Deltapoint pro isn't out yet, running REALLY late on that one. Should have just offered the deltapoint 2, 8 months ago like promised.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LoganbillJ Posted March 24, 2015 Share Posted March 24, 2015 Or kept the original deltapoint available. The best option available IMHO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigcalidave Posted March 24, 2015 Share Posted March 24, 2015 I had two deltapoints stop adjusting properly on my shotgun. They definitely needed a fix, which the 2 would have been. I might give the pro a try, but if the price ends up at 500+ it just won't be worth it vs keeping the fastfire. Looks like they made it much heavier as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LoganbillJ Posted March 24, 2015 Share Posted March 24, 2015 Doubled in weight. Is also larger than the original. Went backwards in my book. The deltapoint 2 looked promising for the few months they advertised it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
olp73 Posted March 25, 2015 Share Posted March 25, 2015 Trijicon red dot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigcalidave Posted March 26, 2015 Share Posted March 26, 2015 What trijicon sight can you get for $200?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmiller Posted March 26, 2015 Share Posted March 26, 2015 Ebay, but it says trojacon:) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigblock455 Posted March 26, 2015 Share Posted March 26, 2015 (edited) I had a FFIII on a Burkett mount for a season on my open AR. I used it quite a bit on short stuff but never got the shoulder mount down fast with the 45* red dot. I took it off and I'm faster with just my scope. I think where you get a benefit from it is when you have say some short targets and then some long and you save time by not dialing the scope up. The problem was my trigger was so much slower because of the unfamiliar shoulder mount and the fact that on shorter stages they have more prone, through obstacles etc. shooting that exasperated my target acquisition problems. I removed it, saved weight and shoot faster win, win. For most shooters I would think sticking with the basics like, improving your rifle shooting and shotgun loading would reap much more benefits than a 45* red dot. As far as cheap Red dots go for 45* mounting a FFIII is as cheap as I'd go. I'll sell my Burkett Mount ($140) and FFIII 8 MOA ($200+) for $230? PM me Edited March 26, 2015 by bigblock455 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jid2 Posted March 28, 2015 Share Posted March 28, 2015 Burris FF3 on a Daniel Defense offset Here. Its worth it for sure, and not too expensive a setup. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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