Reg. vs. shorty???

[Newbie]

Awesome looking gun!

[latewatch]

I also recently had a Bedell shorty built. It has been 10 years since I last shot open class. I mainly went with a shorty because I have been shooting Glocks exclusively for the last several years and I really like the feel of a short light gun. Dan builds a great gun and I believe it is capable of whatever level of shooting that the operator is.

[Flexmoney]

A bit ironic to me...everybody seems to want a "soft" shooting Limited gun (extended dust covers, bull barrels, tungsten guide rods, mousefart loads, etc...), then they think that a shorty Open gun will be their style.

[XRe]

The Viper I used to shoot (built by Rusty Kidd) was a 6" long gun (vs. the 7 inch long "5 inch" guns) that weighed about 39 ounces. It shot far softer than any Hybricomp or full length comp gun (w/ or w/o popples) that I'd shot at that point.

Short and light does not neccesarily imply harsh - the gun design is going to control that a lot. What I sacrificed was flatness - the gun did have a little bit of flip. The dot never left the sight (C-more), but it moved more than the other guns I'd shot at the time. The difference was that it was consistent in how it moved, and could be easily timed. Flatness is deceptive - if the gun doesn't move consistently, how "flat" it shoots is a moot point....

Oh - it was also loud as hell, and concussive when you were next to a wall or shooting through a barrel. But it shot soft w/ 124s at 180ish PF....

Personally, if I had to choose between a longer, heavier gun that shot soft, or a shorter, lighter gun that kicked like a mule, I'd pick the softer shooting gun...

Just for what it's worth....

Dave

[Tzygä]

i will add 2 small barrel ports if the customer wants them. i use a schuemann AET barrel which is a threaded commander length bull barrel and my own compensator. i shorten a gov't slide .700" and use a standard frame. i actually have a pistol just like you are building, it's a 5" 9mm using a schuemann ultimatch bull barrel and my titanium comp, no barrel ports. i also have been shooting my shorty in 9mm with the steel comp,no barrel ports, and i think it's just a bit quicker than my 5" gun. the short gun 9mm load is 8.2 gr power pistol w/125gr zero hollow point .355" bullet and i have also used 9.3gr vv 3n38 with the same bullet and had great results. the 5" gun load is the same bullet with 7.9 gr power pistol. the o.a.l. of both loads is 1.170", that is without spacers in the mags, with spacers you may have to go shorter. i also have another load using vv 3n37 but have not had a chance to chrono it yet and have a load of vv n350 to try also.

Have you ever try how much more powder you must put for the load when you are compare with no barrel ports and 2 holes barrel ports 9mm gun?

Have you try vv 3n38 powder in your 5" gun ?

Is it too difficult to go 9 mm major with 2 holes barrel ports with 9 mm short gun?

[Newbie]

Flex, could you please explain your post? I'm puzzled!

[zhunter]

Flex, could you please explain your post? I'm puzzled!

I think what Flex was trying to point out is that.....

The trend in Limited guns is:

Long Dust Covers, adds weight

Tungsten Rods, adds weight

Bull Barrels, adds weight

Reloading to "just make Major", softer shooting

So, why would a limited shooter who does everything he can to make His/Her ( god am I politically correct today or what? ) blaster heavier and shoot softer and flatter, choose a "Shorty Open Gun" which is lighter and has sharper recoil?

Flex, correct me if I'm wrong, but that is the way I read your post!

[diehli]

So, why would a limited shooter who does everything he can to make His/Her ( god am I politically correct today or what? ) blaster heavier and shoot softer and flatter, choose a "Shorty Open Gun" which is lighter and has sharper recoil?

Flex, correct me if I'm wrong, but that is the way I read your post!

I understand the point Flex is trying to make... and here's my answer:

Because they realize that they're two completely different animals. "Softer" is a means to an end with a Limited gun, which is the same end that we're aiming for with a shorter/lighter Open gun. That end is to be able to shoot the gun quickly and accurately on the same target and between targets. Everything's a balance, though.

A 7-lb Limited gun would allow us to follow the sights easily and get two shots on the same target real quick-like. Not practical, however, when we want to get it to the next target. We balance this by lightening up the gun some. Also, we find that timing the gun (i.e. physically driving the gun back onto the target after a shot) is easier when we have more time to do it than what's provided by a really sharp recoil impulse that lifts the muzzle quickly.

Open guns have something else going for 'em: compensation and a sight that's easier to align on target. The compensation provides the same effect as the weight of a Limited gun: it allows us to get two shots on the same target real quick-like. With that taken care of, why not lighten the gun up to speed up transitions?

Now some people prefer to be at the softer or "flatter" end of the spectrum that is, itself, within a range of rational choices for an IPSC gun, but this is all personal preference WRT what they're willing to give up (more smack in the hand vs. more dot lift). Seriously, would anyone bother shooting an Open gun that beat the crap out of you and also lifted the dot way the hell out of the glass? No, 'cause it's not within that "rational range".

Me, I like light guns. Glocks do me right as does my FF40. "Why a 6-inch gun instead of a 5-inch or 4-inch gun, which would be lighter?" one might ask. Because I also like longer sight radiuses: they help me in the goal of placing shots accurately on the target. If I do my part and don't jerk the gun off the target, the lightness doesn't matter other than it's what I perceive as an advantage. Heavy(er) guns can also help with this as they're ever-so-slightly harder to get moving and can cover up SNAFUs.

Of course, I could be wrong... there's a first time for everything.

[Jake Di Vita]

In my case, the weight saved between a full length and a shorty isn't going to have any affect on my transitions.

[j1b]

As I'm sure you have guessed - this is a personal choice decision.

I am not, have not, nor will I probably ever be a big "weight in the front" gun liker. I have never shot a shorty open gun (they were after my time) but I can tell you my very last open gun I specifically asked for a steel framed gun, with as heavy a mainspring housing as I could get (I considered making one out of tungsten), a titanium comp, and the lightest guide rod I could possible get. I lightened my slide as much as I reasonably could as well. I like guns that are weighted in my hand, not out in front.

Same with limited guns. In a day when tungsten guide rods were the thing, and actually were very encouraged, I struggled with shooting them. The gun never really felt right. Because the shooters I was shooting with liked them, I fought what I was feeling and kept shooting them. One day, I switched to my back up limited gun and was like "oh my God - what a difference" I've since dispossed of every tungsten guide rod I had. I shoot steel framed guns (Springfield hi-caps) with normal configurations on limited guns. It's what I like, when most these days are shooting heavier guns (at least heavier out front because the popular choice is logically plastic framed blasters)

It's personal choice. I don't feel like my gun is configured the way most limited blasters are, but it seems to work for me. I try things still, I try weighted guns etc. etc. - and I keep going back.

Best advice in this forum - try both and see what YOU like.

JB

[diehli]

In my case, the weight saved between a full length and a shorty isn't going to have any affect on my transitions.

A while ago I was at Jojo's place, talking with him and messing with his IPSC and steel Open STIs. Mostly was just figuring out that C-More thing by transitioning between two things in his garage. Started off with his IPSC gun and got into a groove of going between the two things. Picked up his steel gun and immediately over-ran my intended target.

Ultimately training with your blaster is going to make the biggest difference, but I'll take all the (perceived) advantages that I can get. For me, a light gun is one of 'em.

Anyhoo, I think you've just illustrated the point that we're all trying to make: pick what works for you.

[Newbie]

Thank you Gorilla, Chuck, JB, Zhunter, Eric and all the rest of you. You have all been very helpful , I hate being new and trying to figure out what's best . I rather pay for it now then have to sell it and buy another later. Among some Emails I got from Chuck (Thanks Chuck!), Eric and others I have been researching Bedell, Benny Hill and Brazos thus far. I was trying to get some idea from the Brazos website but all the information about the Pro SX (shorty) and his Open gun are all greek to me , actually all the info I have been reading from the above are all greek. Forgive my ignorance as I am still trying to learn. Thanks again.

[smokshwn]

I feel your pain, Newb. Don't give up. Keep talking to Chuck, Dan, Benny and Bob. They will keep on a good track.

Craig

[eerw]

Newbie..

even folks that have been shooting awhile go through this pain...the trick is to find what works for you..

what works for 90 percent of the others..may not work for you..for don't give up on your instincts..

for new shooters..the important thing is to get a gun that runs and runs..is accurate and feels right in your hand..

then you train..practice, dryfire, shoot matches..then you can begin your journey..

all the builders you have been researching have good reputations for building guns that work..so you won't be far off..

[Singlestack]

for new shooters..the important thing is to get a gun that runs and runs..is accurate and feels right in your hand..

then you train..practice, dryfire, shoot matches..then you can begin your journey..

all the builders you have been researching have good reputations for building guns that work..so you won't be far off..

Ditto.

It is hard to tell weather or not you like a gun until you have shot it a whole bunch. Then you will know exactly what is is you don't like as well.

[B.J. Norris]

Newbie,

I'll do my best to put this in the simplest terms I can. Since I shoot a Pro Sx, I'll use it as an example quite a bit in my post.

There are alot of people out there who don't like short guns for various reasons, Matt says they are finicky, my Brazos Pro Sx has been nothing but reliable. If I remember correctly, Bob Londrigan shot close to 5000 rounds out of his Sx without cleaning this past December while training with Frank Garcia (please feel free to correct me Bob).

Other's say they are too harsh, I shot Matt's gun at the Nationals last year and thought it harsh compared to my gun. Everything comes down to what you, as a shooter, like in a gun. When it comes to how a gun recoils, powder choice has alot to do with it. Most like Vhit powders, which I've found to be harsher compared to IMR 4756, which is what Bob is now recommending in his guns. On average, you have to use more powder with a shorty Vs. a 5" gun, so, more of a harsher powder will beat you up quite a bit. Shooting IMR 4756 through what Bob is building now feels like a dream. To me, its as soft as a stock STI Trubor that has Vhit N350 running through, but much flatter, easier to track and handle than a Trubor.

Do I think a short gun is the winning edge that everybody has to have? The honest answer is no, but I do believe that they are much easier to index and shoot than a 5" gun. And before anybody asks how many of the top shooters are shooting short guns, if you look at the results from the 2004 Open Nationals, there are 4 people that I know were not only shooting short guns, they were shooting Brazos Pro Sx's. Todd Jarrett has a 1/4" off of his slide, and I believe that the Licit shooters slides are also slightly chopped off, could be 1/4" or 1/2", I'm not sure. To sum it all up really, with the trends in the sport changing, and with the lower power factor floor, short guns are gaining on the 5" guns quickly, because most find them eaiser to shoot than a full length slide.

[Guest Larry Cazes]

Would it be safe to say that most are running guns like the Pro Sx, which if I understand correctly, is NOT a commander length slide but is a 5" slide that was cut down? This should be the best of both worlds......5" reliability(timing margin) with 75% of the length reduction of a commander type slide setup. Comments?

[johnhurd]

I haven't had a comped open gun since single stacks and I went with a Bedell (mm shorty after reading reports here on them. I got mine last Tuesday built a load in the back yard and got to shoot it 120 times the next day at a indoor range and took it to a match on Sunday. Gun ran just as I expected it to, operator has some catching up to do.

PS caught more than one shooter ogling it too

[PaulW]

Ok I'll chime in. Anyone who knows me (on here or outside of Enos world) knows that I am a tinkerer. With that said you also know that at times I am more undecided than a women in a shoe store. Well I have had 2 shorty's, one in 38 super and one built by Dan in 9mm. Now Dans gun has been "THE" best gun I have owned by far. Well I sold the nicest gun I have ever owned. Why you ask? Because I really never was able to fully get comfortable with the short, light setup. I made GM using a big heavy 5 inch gun. Yea I was able to do some unbelievable splits, a 1.5 bill drill, and the gun ran 100%. But I just could not get use to it. So Dans is building me a 5 inch full size gun in 9mm. So it all comes down to personal preference. Some may be able to handle the smaller harsher setup. I feel what I loose with a 5 inch gun is small compared to being comfortable and confident witha full size gun.

[L9X25]

Paul,

I'm with you completely on the shorty observations ... glad you finally came back to my way of thinking!

My alltime favorite (so far) is a 5" barrel, 5" slide skinny barrel with cone steel comp. Everything is steel but effort has been made to lighten the comp and slide. I think that any meaningful reduction in weight is going to increase the harshness that we both hate. My next project (for after the State match) is going to be a 5" bull barrel gun with a cut govt slide and a comparable steel comp. The overall weight should be similar but the slide weight will be less. I'm hoping that it will give the stability of the long gun with the quicker feel of the short gun. I also have a Ti comp that can replace the steel if I cannot achieve the feel I want.

Honestly, as I am sure you will agree, we are searching for something that may not exist. We want something better than what we have but it takes a while to decide if something IS better. We may have (or have had) the ultimate and just don't realize it yet. The search for perfection continues...

Leo

[Bob Hostetter]

Not everyone shoots a heavy Limited gun. I use a full dust cover STI with a large window cut in the slide. a S/S guide rod, and a bushing type barrel in my Limited gun. As you might guess I prefer short to medium length Open guns. I build them using a government slide shortened to 4.2" and a comp slightly over 2" in length. I try to keep them under 6.5" in length. I prefer a gun that recoils and settles quickly over one that is sluggish and flatter.

The best bet to try as many different guns as possible before you buy.........

[AWLAZS]

Are any of you guys with shorty's goin to be in VT for the aware?

[38supPat]

I'll add my 2 cents. I agree with Jack, I like lighter guns both Open and Limited. The heavy front gun just never felt right to me.

I've shot pretty much every style of open gun out there, from heavy frame heavy front guns (like a Para with an old Limcat full profile comp) to my SVI IMM, from P-9 to Sti full length, Iron sighted shorty single stackers (circa 1990) Caspians and everything else under the sun.

I hated the heavy comp heavy framed guns, they felt sluggish in everyway. The P9 had great balance for me, the Sti full length (built by John @ Millenium Custom) was incredibly accurate (3" at 100m) but I never got used to it, it just had a bit too much weight up front. The best balanced gun I had before the IMM was my EGW caspian. Steele frame with skinny barrel/cone comp, 2 dolphin holes and a C-More with factory legs. It felt like an iron sighted shorty but had the full length bbl.

However, since I got my IMM everything else just doesn't seem right. Out of the box it has performed flawlessly, it was easy to pick up and be competitive right away. In fact after 3 years off I loaded up for area 2 last year and had a great match.

I think you just have to go out and see what suits YOU I'd start with ones that balance as close to what you are shooting now, and then try going radically one way then the other. try a real heavy gun, then a real light one. See which has the biggest effect on your shhoting (good or bad) and you'll at least have an idea which way you should look at going.

[Harmon]

i would go with the fullsize gun..

its more forgiving in every way...and i dont think it will slow your transitions down any...as i can transition a 5 inch gun with 8 port comp faster than i can my limited glock.

[chuckbradley]

Why do you think you can transition a heavy race gun faster than a lighter glock? I dont understand that, moving a heavier object faster than a lighter one, unless its not the transition speed that is being noticed but the sight picture. Maybe its becasue a sight picture with a dot is much faster than a sight picture with iron sights. So transitions between these 2 guns when measured from shot to shot may be faster with the open gun. This is not even considering how much easier shooting a single action 1911 is over the glock or what gun the shooter is more accustomed to.

I am in no way coming out and saying that everybody should be shooting a short gun. I designed and shoot a gun that has the perfect balance between a short, short gun and a 5" full size gun.