Can you round dumping in IDPA? Would you give someone a Falure to do r

[glocklover]

Ok, here's the stage design. You are sitting on a bench. Gun is loaded in holster. There are two targets directly in front of you a yard away with a no shoot target between them. The third target is off to the right about 7 yards away. Then, there is a pepper popper off to the left that activates a drop turner. The popper and drop turner are farther away then the third target off to the right. So, you have to take the three first. The drop turner is disappering. The final target is about 15 yards away. The stage description says draw and engage the targets with 3 shots each.

Here's were everything goes in question. So, after shooting the first three targets with three rounds you only have two rounds left in the gun. So, shooters were shooting five rounds in the third target so that they could go to slide lock and reload before they engaged the drop turner. Other wise they would run out of rounds before the target disappered. You could do a tactical reload before engaging the pepper popper, but it was absolutely faster to go to slide lock and then reload.

Is this round dumping? I can't find anything in the rules saying you can't do this.

Or is this a Falure to do right, because you knowingly are going against the stage description to gain an advantage?

[okorpheus]

It's perfectly legal. He round dumping rule went away a couple of years ago. It was a silly unenforceable rule anyway - you can't prove of they're dumping rounds or just want to make up shots. The only way I can think of a stage designer could avoid competitors dumping is [emoji769] make it limited scoring.

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[dee loo]

It is round dumping, but legal, no more round dumping rule since the 2013 rulebook, that's why you couldn't find it, previously it could be ruled a ftdr from the 2005 rule book. As long as you engaged the 3 targets with the minimum rounds, you are fine adding extra shots. I would have put five rounds on the third target too.

[glocklover]

Thanks guys. I'm going to pass this info on.

[BadShot]

Thanks for getting that cleared up, Craig. I would have guessed that it was not legal.

Skip

[MAC702]

As mentioned, it used to be illegal, but no way to enforce it, even when you KNEW they did it on purpose, like a pro who triple taps the 0 zone before a slide-lock reload in a field course. I SO'd a state championship and was told we could NOT call them on it. Everyone KNEW, but all he had to say was that he thought he missed and took a really fast make-up shot. So the cheaters were the ones with huge advantages. The rule HAD to go away to make it fair for those of us who didn't cheat.

At that same match where I watched that pro triple tap the 0, his son, a junior shooter, was up later in the squad, and did it the correct way. Later, when he thought I couldn't hear, I actually heard this d-bag cheater tell his son that he didn't shoot it the way he told him to for the faster reload. I REALLY wanted to hand out my one and only FTDR then, but bit my tongue.

Edited March 22, 2015 by MAC702

[Jim Watson]

As I said many times, a FTDR penalty for "round dumping" is clearly contradictory to (then) Vickers Count scoring for which "as many rounds as desired may be fired." We are well rid of the concept of "round dumping."

[glocklover]

Thanks for getting that cleared up, Craig. I would have guessed that it was not legal.

Skip

Always learning. Now we know. Edited March 22, 2015 by glocklover

[MAC702]

As I said many times, a FTDR penalty for "round dumping" is clearly contradictory to (then) Vickers Count scoring for which "as many rounds as desired may be fired." We are well rid of the concept of "round dumping."

To clarify, I was referring to the old rules, in which round dumping was clearly illegal. From the (then) rule book:

PC 1. Failure To Do Right (FTDR):

A. Adds twenty (20) seconds to total score.

B. Is assessed for any attempt to circumvent or compromise the spirit or rationale of any stage by the use of inappropriate devices, equipment or techniques.

...

D. Examples: (Non-inclusive list)

1. Firing extra rounds so that you may reload at a more convenient time.

Edited March 22, 2015 by MAC702

[stick]

If you notice the new rules referencing stage descriptions the wording changed also. Stages are now either limited or unlimited not Vickers or limited Vickers. Round dumping has been going on for years in IDPA. After all, at the end of the day, IDPA is just a game. All games have written rules, interpretation of those rules are different among each Safety Officer.

[glocklover]

If you notice the new rules referencing stage descriptions the wording changed also. Stages are now either limited or unlimited not Vickers or limited Vickers. Round dumping has been going on for years in IDPA. After all, at the end of the day, IDPA is just a game. All games have written rules, interpretation of those rules are different among each Safety Officer.

It's to bad that the interpretation of the the rules are not the same. So, that everyone is playing by the same set of rules. I know that the powers that be try very hard to do this.

Next time the stage description could be more specific.

[okorpheus]

If you notice the new rules referencing stage descriptions the wording changed also. Stages are now either limited or unlimited not Vickers or limited Vickers. Round dumping has been going on for years in IDPA. After all, at the end of the day, IDPA is just a game. All games have written rules, interpretation of those rules are different among each Safety Officer.

It's to bad that the interpretation of the the rules are not the same. So, that everyone is playing by the same set of rules. I know that the powers that be try very hard to do this.

Next time the stage description could be more specific.

It is getting better with newer rule books. The best way to ensure consistent interpretations is writing rules and stage descriptions (that fit in the rules) and require no interpretation. Rules discussions shouldn't involve things like intent and principles - they should involve what's in black and white.

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[Jim Watson]

As I said many times, a FTDR penalty for "round dumping" is clearly contradictory to (then) Vickers Count scoring for which "as many rounds as desired may be fired." We are well rid of the concept of "round dumping."

To clarify, I was referring to the old rules, in which round dumping was clearly illegal. From the (then) rule book:

PC 1. Failure To Do Right (FTDR):

A. Adds twenty (20) seconds to total score.

B. Is assessed for any attempt to circumvent or compromise the spirit or rationale of any stage by the use of inappropriate devices, equipment or techniques.

...

D. Examples: (Non-inclusive list)

1. Firing extra rounds so that you may reload at a more convenient time.

And the old rules ALSO SAID:

"In Vickers Count scoring, as many shots as desired may be fired, but only the

best hits as specified by the course description will be scored."

Clearly contradictory, requiring the SO to discern my motives in firing extra shots, the purity of my desire.

I think we were penalized for elimination of that contradiction by the Flat Footed Reload. Fortunately management actually listened and we were only stuck with that for a year.

Edited March 22, 2015 by Jim Watson

[kirbinster]

As said, there is no such thing as round dumping anymore; so this is a non-issue. I was at a match not long ago where there were two targets that you had to shoot with three rounds each in tactical sequence while retreating. After that you kept retreating and then had to go prone behind a wall and shoot three targets in tactical priority with two rounds each. Everybody either did a tactical reload from behind cover before going prone, or went to slide lock and then did a slide lock reload while in the prone position. I won the stage, beating much better shooters by taking a very different approach. After finishing the required six shots, I let five more go towards the last target starting an emergency reload while retreating to cover, thus being fully loaded for the next array.