Rule 9.9.3 procedural

[rowdyb]

Stage 8 at the most recent A2 match. You dropped a bag filled with weight on a stomp box activating those Gunsteel clamshells with NS on them, on multiple targets in quick succession. Part of the head was exposed. I just dropped the bag on the ground, missing the stomp box and shot the partial heads and off I went. No penalty.

[Sarge]

Stage 8 at the most recent A2 match. You dropped a bag filled with weight on a stomp box activating those Gunsteel clamshells with NS on them, on multiple targets in quick succession. Part of the head was exposed. I just dropped the bag on the ground, missing the stomp box and shot the partial heads and off I went. No penalty.

There you go!

[Southpaw]

According to 9.9.3, "This includes no-shoot targets that must be activated when in front of scoring targets to expose them". In the situation the OP described with the max trap, the no shoot didn't NEED to be activated to expose the scoring target, it was already partial exposed; therefore, you don't ever need to activate the max trap.

However, in this situation:

It's like the swinger on stage 1 at the Florida Open. Someone figured out you could shoot it while at rest from a port later in the stage but you still had to go back and stomp the bear trap to activate it after you were done shooting.

You do need to activate the swinger, even if it's after you're done shooting because according to 9.9.3, "Moving scoring targets will always incur failure to shoot at and miss penalties if a competitor fails to activate the mechanism which initiates the target movement."

I'm not saying this necessarily makes sense...but that's how I'm reading 9.9.3...

[blueeyedme]

According to 9.9.3, "This includes no-shoot targets that must be activated when in front of scoring targets to expose them". In the situation the OP described with the max trap, the no shoot didn't NEED to be activated to expose the scoring target, it was already partial exposed; therefore, you don't ever need to activate the max trap.

However, in this situation:

It's like the swinger on stage 1 at the Florida Open. Someone figured out you could shoot it while at rest from a port later in the stage but you still had to go back and stomp the bear trap to activate it after you were done shooting.

You do need to activate the swinger, even if it's after you're done shooting because according to 9.9.3, "Moving scoring targets will always incur failure to shoot at and miss penalties if a competitor fails to activate the mechanism which initiates the target movement."

I'm not saying this necessarily makes sense...but that's how I'm reading 9.9.3...

Winner, winner, chicken dinner.

[George Jones]

Weak stage design and/or incomplete WSB usually lead to these problems.

I don't see a definition in the rulebook for "Rules Guru".

Anyway, I'm with Gary. No penalty.

[robb315]

According to 9.9.3, "This includes no-shoot targets that must be activated when in front of scoring targets to expose them". In the situation the OP described with the max trap, the no shoot didn't NEED to be activated to expose the scoring target, it was already partial exposed; therefore, you don't ever need to activate the max trap.

However, in this situation:

It's like the swinger on stage 1 at the Florida Open. Someone figured out you could shoot it while at rest from a port later in the stage but you still had to go back and stomp the bear trap to activate it after you were done shooting.

You do need to activate the swinger, even if it's after you're done shooting because according to 9.9.3, "Moving scoring targets will always incur failure to shoot at and miss penalties if a competitor fails to activate the mechanism which initiates the target movement."

I'm not saying this necessarily makes sense...but that's how I'm reading 9.9.3...

Makes more sense now.

So it would apply to a max trap/clam that had the target fully covered by the no shoot target. Basically a dissapering target then?

[lenf]

Thanks for all the comments everyone. FWIW, I checked PractiScore and

10 more points wouldn't have changed my standings so no harm there.

After 20 + years of this you would think you know it all....ha ..

As for Rules Guru, he's actually our most experiened RO, going to

Nationals and such.

[outerlimits]

According to 9.9.3, "This includes no-shoot targets that must be activated when in front of scoring targets to expose them". In the situation the OP described with the max trap, the no shoot didn't NEED to be activated to expose the scoring target, it was already partial exposed; therefore, you don't ever need to activate the max trap.

However, in this situation:

It's like the swinger on stage 1 at the Florida Open. Someone figured out you could shoot it while at rest from a port later in the stage but you still had to go back and stomp the bear trap to activate it after you were done shooting.

You do need to activate the swinger, even if it's after you're done shooting because according to 9.9.3, "Moving scoring targets will always incur failure to shoot at and miss penalties if a competitor fails to activate the mechanism which initiates the target movement."

I'm not saying this necessarily makes sense...but that's how I'm reading 9.9.3...

Not so fast. How could you activate it after you are done shooting? Once the command "range is clear" is given, that is the end of the course of fire (8.3.8). Now if you walked back to the activator prior to that, I can understand. That implies you safely retreated to that point, at which time you might have surprised yer RO.

[robb315]

According to 9.9.3, "This includes no-shoot targets that must be activated when in front of scoring targets to expose them". In the situation the OP described with the max trap, the no shoot didn't NEED to be activated to expose the scoring target, it was already partial exposed; therefore, you don't ever need to activate the max trap.

However, in this situation:

It's like the swinger on stage 1 at the Florida Open. Someone figured out you could shoot it while at rest from a port later in the stage but you still had to go back and stomp the bear trap to activate it after you were done shooting.

You do need to activate the swinger, even if it's after you're done shooting because according to 9.9.3, "Moving scoring targets will always incur failure to shoot at and miss penalties if a competitor fails to activate the mechanism which initiates the target movement."

I'm not saying this necessarily makes sense...but that's how I'm reading 9.9.3...

Not so fast. How could you activate it after you are done shooting? Once the command "range is clear" is given, that is the end of the course of fire (8.3.8). Now if you walked back to the activator prior to that, I can understand. That implies you safely retreated to that point, at which time you might have surprised yer RO.

Correct.

Safely back to activator, activate, then unload and show clear.

Watch some videos of this years Florida Open, you'll see what I'm talking about.

Tori almost screwed it up here.

https://youtu.be/9qPX9TDDDFM

https://youtu.be/Bvw9dZEW3ic

Edited March 16, 2015 by robb315

[CZinSC]

My brain hurt after reading this one, mostly because i would have given the procedural too, and it looks like i would have been wrong. So to summarize, to make sure i have this correct:

if a scoring target moves by the activation of a prop, you need to activate at some point or get a procedural for not activating. ( before or after, doesn't matter, as long as it's before "If clear hammer down and holster" )

If a no shoot covers the entire scoring target, you have to activate it at some point otherwise get a penalty. ( FTE and two mikes, even if the target is disappearing )

If the No shoot is positioned in a way that allows you to shoot and score on the scoring target BEFORE activating, you don’t need to activate the no shoot.

Am i right?

[motosapiens]

My brain hurt after reading this one, mostly because i would have given the procedural too, and it looks like i would have been wrong. So to summarize, to make sure i have this correct:

if a scoring target moves by the activation of a prop, you need to activate at some point or get a procedural for not activating. ( before or after, doesn't matter, as long as it's before "If clear hammer down and holster" )

If a no shoot covers the entire scoring target, you have to activate it at some point otherwise get a penalty. ( FTE and two mikes, even if the target is disappearing )

If the No shoot is positioned in a way that allows you to shoot and score on the scoring target BEFORE activating, you don’t need to activate the no shoot.

Am i right?

That's how I understood it as well. Interesting discussion, and I learned something.

[ChuckS]

if a scoring target moves by the activation of a prop, you need to activate at some point or get a procedural for not activating. ( before or after, doesn't matter, as long as it's before "If clear hammer down and holster" )

What rule supports this if the activator is not mentioned in the WSB?

[motosapiens]

if a scoring target moves by the activation of a prop, you need to activate at some point or get a procedural for not activating. ( before or after, doesn't matter, as long as it's before "If clear hammer down and holster" )

What rule supports this if the activator is not mentioned in the WSB?

Does 9.9.3 say anything about being mentioned in the WSB?

[CZinSC]

if a scoring target moves by the activation of a prop, you need to activate at some point or get a procedural for not activating. ( before or after, doesn't matter, as long as it's before "If clear hammer down and holster" )

What rule supports this if the activator is not mentioned in the WSB?

Does 9.9.3 say anything about being mentioned in the WSB?

9.9.3 = Moving scoring targets will always incur failure to shoot at and miss penalties if a competitor fails to activate the mechanism which initiates the target movement. This includes no-shoot targets that must be activated when in front of scoring targets to expose them, penalties are based on number of shots required for the scoring target(s) behind the no-shoot.

Doesn't specify when you need to activate it. Just that you activate the mechanism.

"will always" seems pretty clear to me. No requirement that it needs to be in the WSB. WSB's don't usually say you can't break the 180, yet you know on every stage that is the rule.

If i'm reading this rule incorrectly, please let me know. But It seems pretty clear to me though.

[ChuckS]

if a scoring target moves by the activation of a prop, you need to activate at some point or get a procedural for not activating. ( before or after, doesn't matter, as long as it's before "If clear hammer down and holster" )

What rule supports this if the activator is not mentioned in the WSB?

Does 9.9.3 say anything about being mentioned in the WSB?

No. The reason I mentioned it was that is the only possible path that I can see to a procedural for solely not activating an activator. Section 9.9 deals only with scoring and penalties for moving targets.

[Southpaw]

According to 9.9.3, "This includes no-shoot targets that must be activated when in front of scoring targets to expose them". In the situation the OP described with the max trap, the no shoot didn't NEED to be activated to expose the scoring target, it was already partial exposed; therefore, you don't ever need to activate the max trap.

However, in this situation:

It's like the swinger on stage 1 at the Florida Open. Someone figured out you could shoot it while at rest from a port later in the stage but you still had to go back and stomp the bear trap to activate it after you were done shooting.

You do need to activate the swinger, even if it's after you're done shooting because according to 9.9.3, "Moving scoring targets will always incur failure to shoot at and miss penalties if a competitor fails to activate the mechanism which initiates the target movement."

I'm not saying this necessarily makes sense...but that's how I'm reading 9.9.3...

Makes more sense now.

So it would apply to a max trap/clam that had the target fully covered by the no shoot target. Basically a dissapering target then?

Correct. An appearing target that can't be shot without activating a mechanism would get 2 mikes and a FTE even if disappearing such as a max trap that fully covers the scoring target because in this situation the no shoot MUST be activated as noted in 9.9.3

[ChuckS]

if a scoring target moves by the activation of a prop, you need to activate at some point or get a procedural for not activating. ( before or after, doesn't matter, as long as it's before "If clear hammer down and holster" )

What rule supports this if the activator is not mentioned in the WSB?

Does 9.9.3 say anything about being mentioned in the WSB?

9.9.3 = Moving scoring targets will always incur failure to shoot at and miss penalties if a competitor fails to activate the mechanism which initiates the target movement. This includes no-shoot targets that must be activated when in front of scoring targets to expose them, penalties are based on number of shots required for the scoring target(s) behind the no-shoot.

Doesn't specify when you need to activate it. Just that you activate the mechanism.

"will always" seems pretty clear to me. No requirement that it needs to be in the WSB. WSB's don't usually say you can't break the 180, yet you know on every stage that is the rule.

If i'm reading this rule incorrectly, please let me know. But It seems pretty clear to me though.

The "will always" refers to penalties on the scoring target in this context. In the OP's case, how do you apply "failure to shoot at and miss penalties" if the target has been shot at and not missed?

ETA: I will now go stand silently in the corner with Gary and George..

Edited March 16, 2015 by ChuckS

[motosapiens]

if a scoring target moves by the activation of a prop, you need to activate at some point or get a procedural for not activating. ( before or after, doesn't matter, as long as it's before "If clear hammer down and holster" )

What rule supports this if the activator is not mentioned in the WSB?

Does 9.9.3 say anything about being mentioned in the WSB?

9.9.3 = Moving scoring targets will always incur failure to shoot at and miss penalties if a competitor fails to activate the mechanism which initiates the target movement. This includes no-shoot targets that must be activated when in front of scoring targets to expose them, penalties are based on number of shots required for the scoring target(s) behind the no-shoot.

Doesn't specify when you need to activate it. Just that you activate the mechanism.

"will always" seems pretty clear to me. No requirement that it needs to be in the WSB. WSB's don't usually say you can't break the 180, yet you know on every stage that is the rule.

If i'm reading this rule incorrectly, please let me know. But It seems pretty clear to me though.

The "will always" refers to penalties on the scoring target in this context. In the OP's case, how do you apply "failure to shoot at and miss penalties" if the target has been shot at and not missed?

ETA: I will now go stand silently in the corner with Gary and George..

I thought we decided that in the OP's case, there was no need to activate, because the target wasn't moving, and it was already exposed without having to move the no-shoot. IMHO, you can't apply penalties in the OP's case. It seems like 9.9.3 doesn't apply there.

Now if the WSB states that you must activate the activator in the OP's case, then yeah, I think you could give a procedural then, and maybe that's what you were talking about and I misunderstood you.

Edited March 16, 2015 by motosapiens

[Gary Stevens]

If the scoring target does not move and can be shot at will then activation of an activator related to that target is moot.

If the target is covered by a no shoot with none of the target visible then the activator that moves the no shoot out of the way must be activated or penalties apply.

Either cover the target or use a door or some other prop to activate a partially covered target. This requires the shooter to activate the mechanism by an action other than shooting.

You also have to be careful with Clam Shell targets to block off vision of the rising target at L-2 and above.

[JAFO]

If the target is covered by a no shoot with none of the target visible then the activator that moves the no shoot out of the way must be activated or penalties apply.

Should this be "...with less than 25% of the A zone visible..."?

9.9.1 Moving scoring targets which present at least a portion of the highest scoring area when at rest following the completion of their designed movement, or which continuously appear and disappear, will always incur failure to shoot at and/or miss penalties (exception see Rule 9.2.4.4). See Appendix B2 or B3 for the percent of target to be presented.

9.9.2 Moving scoring targets, which do not comply with the above criteria are considered disappearing targets and will not incur failure to shoot at or miss penalties except where Rule 9.9.3 applies.

In the OP, at least 25% of the A zone was available at rest. But if I setup a max trap with an off-center inverted no-shoot that only leaves a section of the left D zone visible, then the target is disappearing per 9.9.2 because I don't offer at least 25% of the A zone at rest. Any misses would be NPM's, and I would think that a failure to activate procedural should apply since the no-shoot must be activated to expose the highest scoring zone, even though it's not the scoring target that's in motion.

Edited March 16, 2015 by JAFO

[Gary Stevens]

The OP said all of the upper A/B was visible.

Even if only the D zone was partially visible the shooter could shoot it and skip activation. It is their choice to activate and shoot A's or not activate and shoot D's. However if they don't leave the entire upper A or 25 percent of the lower A at final rest it is scored as a disappearing target for misses.

[Southpaw]

Yes I know you all thought we finally resolved all 9.9.3 questions, but I just had another interesting situation come up today: we had a stage where a no shoot was fully blocking a port in a wall with 4 scoring targets behind it. The no shoot was on a max trap facing backwards without a scoring target attached, so when you stomp on the activator the no shoot swings down exposing the 4 scoring targets through the port and then the no shoot comes back up blocking them and making them disappearing targets.

At least half the shooters were skipping these 4 targets and taking the NPMs. One shooter skipped them, but didn't stomp on the activator. According to 9.9.3 that'd be 8 mikes instead of 8 NPMs. But does he also get 1 or 4 procedurals? Is it a FTE for each of the 4 targets, or just a procedural for failure to activate the mechanism exposing the scoring targets? The first sentence in 9.9.3 refers to a failure to shoot at penalty so 4 procedurals? Thoughts?

[ChuckS]

Yes I know you all thought we finally resolved all 9.9.3 questions, but I just had another interesting situation come up today: we had a stage where a no shoot was fully blocking a port in a wall with 4 scoring targets behind it. The no shoot was on a max trap facing backwards without a scoring target attached, so when you stomp on the activator the no shoot swings down exposing the 4 scoring targets through the port and then the no shoot comes back up blocking them and making them disappearing targets.

At least half the shooters were skipping these 4 targets and taking the NPMs. One shooter skipped them, but didn't stomp on the activator. According to 9.9.3 that'd be 8 mikes instead of 8 NPMs. But does he also get 1 or 4 procedurals? Is it a FTE for each of the 4 targets, or just a procedural for failure to activate the mechanism exposing the scoring targets? The first sentence in 9.9.3 refers to a failure to shoot at penalty so 4 procedurals? Thoughts?

I am not sure if it makes a difference after 8 mikes and 4 FTEs (yup, 1 per target) plus the 40 points he didn't get but unless the WSB said that you had to activate the activator, there is no penalty for not stepping on the thing.

[Southpaw]

Come on Chuck, you must be joking . I thought we reached a consensus on this, see post #35 for a good summary of 9.9.3. 9.9.3 has no mention of a WSB or that certain language needs to be included in it. It says that "Moving scoring targets will always incur failure to shoot at and miss penalties..." and in the next sentence says this includes no-shoots that fully block scoring targets. You don't need to have anything in the WSB; if the target set up meets the description in 9.9.3 and the activator isn't activated then you get the penalty (mikes instead of NPMs and a procedural), I'm just trying to verify if it's 1 or 4 procedurals in the scenario I described above (sounds like 4 to me from reading 9.9.3).

[ChuckS]

There is a subtle difference in getting a penalty for not activating an activator and getting penalties on scoring targets as per 9.9.3. In your example of this morning, the guy who did not activate the activator would get 2 mikes and one failure to shoot at penalty for each target behind the port. What I am indicating, is that if the actuator was mentioned in the WSB, the shooter could get an additional procedural penalty for not following the WSB. I am not sure if that is double indemnity or not but I don't think so. In any case, your friend racked up 120 penalty points by skipping the activator. Not to mention on passing up to 40 points for A hits. Ouch....