lenf Posted March 15, 2015 Share Posted March 15, 2015 Yesterday I shot a stage where I was given a procedural error. The target was on a Max-Trap which had a no-shoot in front of it. The entire upper A-B zone was visible on the scoring target. Therefore, I did not activate the Max-Trap. I took, and scored, two on the upper A-B. I felt I didn't need to move the no-shoot as there was plenty of target visible. I was given a procedural for failure to activate, which I thought was wrong. It was not in the WSB. Any thoughts ??? 9.9.3 Moving scoring targets will always incur failure to shoot at and miss penalties if a competitor fails to activate the mechanism which initiates the target movement. This includes no-shoot targets that must be activated when in front of scoring targets to expose them, penalties are based on number of shots required for the scoring target(s) behind the no-shoot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robb315 Posted March 15, 2015 Share Posted March 15, 2015 Next time you could just activate it after you are done shooting the stage. It won't add any more time since it's from the last shot fired. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ktm300 Posted March 15, 2015 Share Posted March 15, 2015 If all you got was a procedural you were lucky. Should have been 2 mikes and an FTE assuming 2 shots per target. Yes you can activate it after your last shot if you like. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strick Posted March 15, 2015 Share Posted March 15, 2015 The target he shot didn't have to be exposed so does 9.9.3 apply? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lenf Posted March 15, 2015 Author Share Posted March 15, 2015 (edited) There are two bullet holes in the Upper A-B and your telling me I get TWO MIKES and and FTE ????? What's wrong with this picture ? I agree with Strick...It was not necessary to move the No-Shoot to expose the target ... Edited March 16, 2015 by lenf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChuckS Posted March 15, 2015 Share Posted March 15, 2015 At any level 2 or higher match, if you can see the target, you can shoot it. Level 1 is the same unless there is a statement in the WSB prohibiting early engagement (9.9.4). 9.9.3 only deals with the penalties on scoring targets. The scoring target was properly engaged in this case The only possible chance for a penalty that I can see is that the WSB called out some monkey motion to trigger the activator that wasn't done. With the info given up to this point, the penalty was incorrect. Later, Chuck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted March 15, 2015 Share Posted March 15, 2015 Like Chuck says, it's pretty clear if you read the rules. Next time, when in doubt pull out your rule book. 9.9.3 Moving scoring targets will always incur failure to shoot at and miss penalties if a competitor fails to activate the mechanism which initiates the target movement. This includes no-shoot targets that must be activated when in front of scoring targets to expose them, penalties are based on number of shots required for the scoring target(s) behind the no-shoot. 9.9.4 Level I matches only - If the written stage briefing prohibits the engagement of certain targets prior to activation, the competitor will incur one procedural penalty per shot fired at such targets prior to operating the activating mechanism, up to the maximum number of available hits Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deacon12224 Posted March 15, 2015 Share Posted March 15, 2015 Sounds like it is an illegal stage if it was a level 2 or higher match. 2.1.8.5 Appearing scoring targets must be designed and constructed to be obscured to the competitor (during the course of fire) prior to activation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted March 15, 2015 Share Posted March 15, 2015 Yesterday I shot a stage where I was given a procedural error. The target was on a Max-Trap which had a no-shoot in front of it. The entire upper A-B zone was visible on the scoring target. Therefore, I did not activate the Max-Trap. I took, and scored, two on the upper A-B. I felt I didn't need to move the no-shoot as there was plenty of target visible. I was given a procedural for failure to activate, which I thought was wrong. It was not in the WSB. Any thoughts ??? 9.9.3 Moving scoring targets will always incur failure to shoot at and miss penalties if a competitor fails to activate the mechanism which initiates the target movement. This includes no-shoot targets that must be activated when in front of scoring targets to expose them, penalties are based on number of shots required for the scoring target(s) behind the no-shoot. What level of match? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChuckS Posted March 15, 2015 Share Posted March 15, 2015 I am curious as to what the activator was... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted March 15, 2015 Share Posted March 15, 2015 Next time you could just activate it after you are done shooting the stage. It won't add any more time since it's from the last shot fired. If all you got was a procedural you were lucky. Should have been 2 mikes and an FTE assuming 2 shots per target. Yes you can activate it after your last shot if you like. When you read 993 and 994 together they don't seem to support that you can activate after you shot them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted March 16, 2015 Share Posted March 16, 2015 Next time you could just activate it after you are done shooting the stage. It won't add any more time since it's from the last shot fired. If all you got was a procedural you were lucky. Should have been 2 mikes and an FTE assuming 2 shots per target. Yes you can activate it after your last shot if you like. When you read 993 and 994 together they don't seem to support that you can activate after you shot them. Depends on 2 things: Match level and visibility of the target. If it's a greater than level 1 match, you may engage the target if visible, but still need to activate the mechanism at some point -- which could be after the last shot was fired. I once shot a rifle match stage way out of my class by quickly engaging a couple of partially visible fast movers, that were meant to be engaged through a very distant port. I shot the entire stage from only a couple out of four or five possible positions, with little movement, then strolled forward to the port to activate the movers..... Now that was a level 1 match before we had 9.9.4 -- so if they had written the requirement to activate prior to engaging into the WSB, that plan would not have worked.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spanky Posted March 16, 2015 Share Posted March 16, 2015 Next time you could just activate it after you are done shooting the stage. It won't add any more time since it's from the last shot fired. If all you got was a procedural you were lucky. Should have been 2 mikes and an FTE assuming 2 shots per target. Yes you can activate it after your last shot if you like. When you read 993 and 994 together they don't seem to support that you can activate after you shot them. 9.9.4 doesn't apply if this is a level 2 match. The target he shot didn't have to be exposed so does 9.9.3 apply? Yes. It says "always" which means unless you activate it during the course of fire, you will get 2M/1P It doesn't say you have to activate it before you shoot it (Unless in a level 1 if specified as per 9.9.4), just that you have to activate it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strick Posted March 16, 2015 Share Posted March 16, 2015 The target he shot didn't have to be exposed so does 9.9.3 apply? Yes. It says "always" which means unless you activate it during the course of fire, you will get 2M/1P It doesn't say you have to activate it before you shoot it (Unless in a level 1 if specified as per 9.9.4), just that you have to activate it. The target that moved was a no-shoot but didn't have to move to expose the shoot target....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spanky Posted March 16, 2015 Share Posted March 16, 2015 The target he shot didn't have to be exposed so does 9.9.3 apply? Yes. It says "always" which means unless you activate it during the course of fire, you will get 2M/1P It doesn't say you have to activate it before you shoot it (Unless in a level 1 if specified as per 9.9.4), just that you have to activate it. The target that moved was a no-shoot but didn't have to move to expose the shoot target....... 9.9.3 also references NS which move to expose a shoot target. the same 2m/1p apply in that case as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strick Posted March 16, 2015 Share Posted March 16, 2015 The target he shot didn't have to be exposed so does 9.9.3 apply? Yes. It says "always" which means unless you activate it during the course of fire, you will get 2M/1P It doesn't say you have to activate it before you shoot it (Unless in a level 1 if specified as per 9.9.4), just that you have to activate it. The target that moved was a no-shoot but didn't have to move to expose the shoot target....... 9.9.3 also references NS which move to expose a shoot target. the same 2m/1p apply in that case as well. My point is that the target was alreasd exposed so the no shoot did nothing. I know we have all shot max traps with the head exposed, technically speaking the NS does not do anything so it does not need to move. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Stevens Posted March 16, 2015 Share Posted March 16, 2015 No penalty. If you want it activated cover the target. If you can see it, you can shoot it L-2 and above. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spanky Posted March 16, 2015 Share Posted March 16, 2015 No penalty. If you want it activated cover the target. If you can see it, you can shoot it L-2 and above. I understand what you're saying, however, this completely negates 9.9.3 doesn't it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strick Posted March 16, 2015 Share Posted March 16, 2015 No penalty. If you want it activated cover the target. If you can see it, you can shoot it L-2 and above. I understand what you're saying, however, this completely negates 9.9.3 doesn't it? Yep.....that is what I was saying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spanky Posted March 16, 2015 Share Posted March 16, 2015 I agree that if you can see it you can shoot it. That still doesn't mean you don't have to activate an activator, whether it exposes the (already obviously exposed) target or not. That's my understanding, at least. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChuckS Posted March 16, 2015 Share Posted March 16, 2015 No penalty. If you want it activated cover the target. If you can see it, you can shoot it L-2 and above. I understand what you're saying, however, this completely negates 9.9.3 doesn't it? You gotta look at 9.9.2 first. That rule defines the disappearing target. 9.9.3 explains when the miss/fte penalties apply to the targets defined in 9.9.2. The target that the OP described was not disappearing so 9.9.2 and 9.9.3 are not applicable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lenf Posted March 16, 2015 Author Share Posted March 16, 2015 (edited) Thanks for the feedback. The match was a Level 1, club match. There was nothing in the WSB about this target. The Activator was a step-pad. The Upper A-B was fully exposed at rest. I thought it was faster to run past the step-pad and engage the Upper A-B. Which I did and which worked..... then the procedural ??? If it ain't in the WSB, how can you give me a penalty for engaging and exposed target, at a safe angle of fire ???? I stated all the above to the MD and he said "penalty", which our resident Rules Guru had called once before ... Edited March 16, 2015 by lenf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robb315 Posted March 16, 2015 Share Posted March 16, 2015 I agree that if you can see it you can shoot it. That still doesn't mean you don't have to activate an activator, whether it exposes the (already obviously exposed) target or not. That's my understanding, at least.It's like the swinger on stage 1 at the Florida Open. Someone figured out you could shoot it while at rest from a port later in the stage but you still had to go back and stomp the bear trap to activate it after you were done shooting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChuckS Posted March 16, 2015 Share Posted March 16, 2015 Can someone cite the rule that an activator has to be activated and what the penalty is for not activating it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted March 16, 2015 Share Posted March 16, 2015 And to think some hate rules discussions! There are at least 2-3 ways to interpret this situation and everyone thinks they are right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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