drop in trigger

[outerlimits]

anyone already try the new JP drop in unit? since it's adjustable, and chip raised his price, cost is the same. was curious if the adjustability of the new JP unit makes it better.

[raz-0]

Well it seems pretty simple. If you want a flat trigger, or a 2 stage, get the CMC. If you want a single stage but don't want to ahve to adjust bits and lock-tite them, get the CMC. If you want to be able to adjust bits, get the JP. If none of the above bits matter, get the JP because they are involved in the sport more.

Both have similar good stuff. good springs, hardened tool steel, large surface area on the contact areas, and drop-inableness.

I've got a non-drop in JP on one rifle, and a drop-in CMC two stage flat on my current project. I'll have to say that I think the CMC is the trigger of choice for me because I prefer a 2-stage over a single stage, and the CMC does the 2-stage thing in a way that I like quite a bit.

[Cosby]

I have the JP drop in and really like it. The trigger feel is much more like my Limited 40 and that is a feel I am accustomed to.

[benny hill]

Support J.P. because he supports out sport & besides he makes a better trigger.

[benny hill]

That's our sport.

[kellyn]

Yikes, we are going to get into this again!!

I will defer to master gun guru Bennie Hill about the technical superiority of the JP over the CMC since I have not shot a CMC that much. Although I do understand that there have been issues with safety interface with the CMC.

Obviously shooting a CMC has not held Matt Burkett back but shooting a JP has not held anyone else back either.

If you have the burning need for a 2 stage or flat trigger, get the CMC. But if you win the RM3G or the 3 Gun Nats or SMM3G or a host of other matches, please don't pick up the JP upper or rifle off the prize table. Let me get it.

BUT the best trigger pull I've ever felt on an AR was the Accuracy Speaks (another great match sponsor) trigger on Jake Kempton's rifle. Of course, it's not a drop in and of course Jake now works for JP!

[George]

I have noticed the price on the JP DIY kit is the same as the current price for the CMC drop-in on Cactus Tactical (but not in stock) which is $179.99. The JP drop-in is $199.95.

I am going to suggest that the true value here is the JP DIY kit. I got one off the RM3G prize table last year and did the install myself on an older Colt lower I had. It was not only a fun project, but I am proud of doing it myself too. I know much more about the way an AR trigger group works now. I could not have bought a fraction of the positive things I got out of doing it myself with the $20 difference to the JP drop-in and even at the same price as the CMC drop-in, I think the JP DIY kit is a better end value. The next time I change any AR trigger, it will be to a JP DIY with speed hammer and oversize anti-walk pins. The sum of all those parts is an awesome result and something I really trust under the hood.

Bigger, beeffier parts that don’t have to be made smaller to fit in a box have to be more robust in the long run, it’s just basic engineering. Cleaning and inspection are issues with the reduced access. The JP drop-in does seem to allow more visual inspection and cleaning/lubing access than the CMC, but both are more constricted and use miniaturized parts compared to a traditional AR trigger group.

JMHO,

--

Regards,

[Cactustactical]

George, to correct a statement of yours, we have the curved 2 stage and single stage flat triggers in stock if you need one. The McCormick page in our web store is up to date with current stock status.

Chip McCormick Drop in triggers

It is curious how something as simple as different manufacturers of triggers create such controversy.

[George]

My apologies, I only looked at the top item on the page (single stage curved CMC) and assumed it’s out of stock order status was true for all.

Different drummers are a very good thing when practiced with conscious choice behind the decisions.

[raz-0]

I am going to suggest that the true value here is the JP DIY kit.

...

Bigger, beeffier parts that don’t have to be made smaller to fit in a box have to be more robust in the long run

having the JP DIY trigger and a CMC, and from looking at the parts, with regards to the sear, the drop ins are as big or bigger. With regards to the disconnector surface, the drop ins are substantially bigger.

For someone shopping for a bargain on a decent trigger that is single stage, the JP DIY kit without the oversize pins or speed hammer is definitely a nice option especially if the sear engagement surface on your stock hammer is in good shape. The video they package with it is superb.

[George]

Razbut, I didn’t mention the “Engagement Surfaces“ as being what is larger, or smaller. I said the parts themselves mass wise. It is obvious they would have to have similar contact area to have similar performance in the safety arena.

What I did say was the parts are a little “smaller“ to fit the decreased clearance there is in the trigger group cavity after the box the parts are in takes up space in the receiver. The JP drop-in seems to use the normal speed hammer, but all the rest of the parts are a little smaller to fit the box. I don’t have a CMC drop-in to measure, but the parts would have to be a little smaller than usual to fit.

The speed hammer and the oversize anti-walk pins are an important part of making the DIY kit as good, or better than the drop-in’s. Without them, the performance value of the package is not up to par and the value is lost, IMHO.

--

Regards,

[EricW]

I think it's safe to say that any of the *quality* trigger systems out there are going to win you points over the stock AR trigger group.

I endured the stock AR trigger and lost points after points after points because of it. Hell, a matchlock is an almost an improvement over the stock trigger group.

[raz-0]

I don't know what is with calling me razbut, but I'll let it slide.

You might want to look at the pieces of the components. (jp has good pictures of this).

The trigger/sear in the DIY has bulges out the side that are fairly wide. That is the area material is taken out of , not the material of the tirgger/sear that relates to engagement surfaces. The disconnector on a stock trigger looks like 1/8" stamped sheet steel. The DIY trigger has similarly dimensioned stuff that appears higher quality, and looks to me to be EDM cut. The drop ins from both JP and CMC appear to have a disconnector at least twice as wide. How is that more flimsy?

not to mention the safety engagement area of the DIY kit is about as wide as the disconnector piece (once again a nice high quality hardened part). On both the JP and CMC drop in it is as wide as the front sear area , wich is more than twice as wide as the engagement area on the DIY kit.

How is this flimsier? Most of the space taken for the outside jacket (which is very thin as it isn't meant to be taking the load under normal use because the frame of the lower still does that when installed. is taken out of the space around a standard ar trigger where there is normally .. well EMPTY SPACE. The same empty space the JP DIY kit uses to put in the screws used to adjust disconnector timing etc..

Seriously, look at the JP part. it uses the SAME low mass hammer. If that fits in there, the sear of the trigger protion has to be able to fit in there full width as well. Without having one of the drop in's in my hand, I had assumed things owuld be skinnier as well to fit. They really aren't.

bearing surface area and strength are what have to do with durability. Not somethings mass. Even if you want to go by mass, I'll bet if you had the means and desire to tear a drop in apart, the parts would mass more.

Seriously, have you actually examined any of the drop in triggers up close before making statements about their durability.

[Loves2Shoot]

I will when mine comes in in 3 weeks

[George]

I don't know what is with calling me razbut

Kinda of a stupid thing on my part as in, Raz-o has a lot of but’s to say about things, as in, oh but. Nothing negative and not in any way related to double t’s at all amigo. Kinda stupid funny, but not trying to be insulting, sorry, please accept my apology.

Seriously, have you actually examined any of the drop in triggers up close before making statements about their durability

Not the CMC, but I have closely inspected by eye a pre-production JP drop-in. The hammer was the standard speed hammer. The housing seemed nice and beefy and the spring looked to be slightly narrower and have shorter legs. The disconnector and sear pieces looked just a little bit narrower too, but my eye is not calibrated and I did not ask if they were special to the drop-in.

The fact is, in the drop-in’s the pin is really a box seated bushing that then holds a through pin to the receiver. Two points of clearance and therefore flex. One part, fit on one pin directly mounted to the receiver with a no slop driven in fit will have exactly one half the slop that the drop-in pin setups give their rotating parts. Bottom engineering line here, there are two sets of clearances in play versus one. Less clearance is always tighter and/or less flexible.

BTW, stock and even a whole lot of stock type after-market parts are all surface hardened trash and should never be modified by grinding away at the hardened veneer. I have been through several re-worked stock AR triggers and they all go away after a little while. Parts made of 100% hardened tool steel are the only solution for long term AR triggers. Eric is right, once you get to a certain level of quality it is pretty much all juice ;-)

--

Regards,

Edited February 18, 2005 by George

[raz-0]

apology accepted, and on the CMC 2-stage I have, the disconnector is definitely beefier than on the drop in. The picture of the drop in on the JP page ( http://www.jprifles.com/photos/JPFCM3s.jpg ) looks similar, and also definitely looks different than the earlier pictures they had of the unit in ads. It also appears to have thicker "walls" for the retaining device than the CMC.

I also agree the DIY kits has educational value, but not everyone is looking for that. I'm not particuarly fond of mine, but I don't regret the money spent because I learned a lot from it and it IS better than stock, even on a AR-10 with heavie springs, no speed hammer, and no oversized pins.