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When would a RWR be faster than a slide lock reload?


MilkMyDuds
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Just thinking out loud. Imagine you have a stage where you (SSP) would fire first 8 rounds into the initial targets, then move to another cover position, from where you need to engage the remaining 3 targets in various directions.

In this scenario, would it be faster to do a reload with retention behind the new cover before starting engaging the remaining 3 targets, than to wai for the gun go empty and do a slide lock reload that will likely force you to stop and resume shooting at the same target?

Thoughts?

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In my lowly opinion, if you can perform a RWR while moving behind cover it's worth a try. If you move across an opening to a new position then stop to do a RWR I think it would slow you down. Of course it all depends on how fast you move and how fast you reload.

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With me it depends on how long is the cover that I can reload behind, if it's 4-6ft then I will typically do a RWR depending on the next target array. If I'm crossing an open distance coming into the cover, the cover is short and I'm coming in hot I will go right to the first target and preform a slide-lock reload when needed.

Typically if shooting from one side of cover and having to move to the other side and it's 4ft cover or more I'll do a RWR. In this case you won't be moving that fast and if you can do multiple things at once it will save you time.

Being able to do this gives you more options as a shooter and makes the shooting easier because your not pausing in the middle of a shooting array to reload then remember which target you need to come back to. With the new rules I need to practice this more, the recent no moving while reloading I had not been practicing my RWR's.

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how quick do you do a standing slide lock reload? 1.9 seconds? 2.5 seconds?

the retention reload will be quicker if you can do it while moving a distance that takes you no more than one second greater than your slide lock reload time. how far can you go in 2 seconds of lateral movement?

if so, then the rwr only cost you an additional 1 second.

set up cones in your garage, get your timer and measure it out. find out empirically for yourself and your skill set.

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I find my standing slide lock reloads to be relatively fast and my moving RWR to be relatively slow. I have been practicing and experimenting with doing RWR when at all possible recently.

I'm all for doing the RWR but I definitely move slower and think that for shorter movement segments it is slower in many cases than the slide lock reload. Particularly when I have to delay the start of the RWR while moving across a opening or port.

You also have to consider the added risk factor and adding one more complex action that has to be timed precisely. Added time for mistakes and potential procedurals are distinct possibilities.

In the right stage, executed well, it can be a thing of beauty. Practice and choose wisely.

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I avoid gratuitous CLRs, but I think the repeal of the FFR will make them useful on some stages.

I think the "discovered target" provision will make the CLR essential on some such stages.

Imagine 6 shots from cover at P1, six shots on "discovered targets" on the move to cover at P2, six shots from cover at P2. "Discovered targets" not visible from cover at P2. Better CLR at P1.

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I avoid gratuitous CLRs, but I think the repeal of the FFR will make them useful on some stages.

I think the "discovered target" provision will make the CLR essential on some such stages.

Imagine 6 shots from cover at P1, six shots on "discovered targets" on the move to cover at P2, six shots from cover at P2. "Discovered targets" not visible from cover at P2. Better CLR at P1.

This is interesting - can you start RWR while moving from one cover 1 to cover 2, while on the way you "discover" targets behind vision barriers (which are not visible until you almost reach cover 2)?

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What Bob H said and better than how I said it.. It's really only faster if you can do it, at speed, while moving. And then really only on an array of targets that makes sense to do so.

I'm glad this is back, as before it was a way to have some difference in skill for stage management.

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Emergency reload is always faster when just comparing reload times. But if you can do a tac-load on the move, now you're using your time more efficiently if you can move at roughly the same speed.

There are also times when you need to do a RWR because you won't have enough rounds to shoot the CoF the proper way, like if there is steel or activators and you need more bullets to shoot targets before they disappear.

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This is interesting - can you start RWR while moving from one cover 1 to cover 2, while on the way you "discover" targets behind vision barriers (which are not visible until you almost reach cover 2)?

No, you are going to have to CLR before leaving P1 cover. While you may reload on the move in the open, you may not resume shooting until you reach the next cover.

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  • 2 weeks later...

valerko, depends on how fast you can do a rwr. :devil: a slide lock reload takes me 1.90 seconds. a rwr takes me 2.50 seconds. if there is any wall or movement that takes even as little as two seconds to do i come out ahead doing the rwr there.

example on 8 targets. 4 before a wall and 4 after. draw 1.50. all the shot splits are .25 and all the target transitions are .40. So you'll have three transitions and 4 splits. Or 3.70 in shooting on the side you start. Say it takes a shooter 2 seconds to translate behind the wall to the other side.

now on the other side you have three shots on the first target, so two splits there for the round dump and reload onto a new target. 1.90 second slide lock reload. then two more transitions and three more shot splits. so 3.95 that side. Add it all up and you have 9.65 seconds in shooting and moving.

t1 t2 t3 t4 ===========t8 t7 t6 t5

now do it with a rwr behind the same wall. first part is the same. 3.70 seconds. if i do the rwr behind cover in 2.50 seconds and it takes only 2.0 seconds to move i'll be standing there for .50 seconds finishing my rwr.

now the finishing array has three target transitions and 4 splits at .40 and .25 respectively for a total of 2.2 seconds. 3.7 + 2.5 + 2.2 = 8.40 seconds.

you could take up to 3.5 seconds to do the rwr and still be ahead. and taking away the round dump on the first one only gains them .25.

know how fast you can do a rwr while moving. know how long it takes you to cover a certain distance. correlate that data with the stage lay out and your skill level. it is almost always better aka faster, to do two things at once. assuming esp/ssp and that most idpa stages only require one reload due to the 18 rnd max for a stage.

and then for cdp you have what i call "the shelby load" after glenn. shoot the gun to slide lock, do a slide lock reload and then do an immediate rwr so you're back at 9 again. you do this when you'd be required to do a reload for just one shot at the end of a stage in cdp. do the two reloads at once. but that's a whole other topic and something used very rarely.

Edited by rowdyb
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A RWR while moving can be practiced in dry fire to get an idea of where it may or may not be an advantage in a match. Its most beneficial on stages designed to put you at slide lock while engaging a dissapearing target, or where you'd otherwise have to drop a prop like the ubiquitous "baby" or dummy in the middle of a reload. My RWR is roughly 0.5 seconds slower than my slidelock reload when I'm not fumbling the mag into my pocket. I've used the moving RWR with great success in field stages, and have confirmed how much movement is necessary for it to pay off in dry fire. Nobody but the SO saw me RWR on the move the last time I used it in a field stage (pre FFR), and the rest of my squad assumed I had overloaded my mags when I didn't go to slidelock where everyone else did. It can be very smooth, fast and efficient at times. Sometimes not.

In the scenario the OP describes, I'd do the RWR if it was more than 4-6 feet to the next shooting position. In dry fire, that's the distance I've found where the moving RWR pays off with my speed and consistency. Slicing the pie in IDPA usually gets your body extended in the opposite direction of the next shooting position, slowing your exit speed and giving you time to stow while getting moving. I normally start to stow the mag as I'm shifting my weight, just before my trailing foot leaves the ground on the way to the next position.

Edited by Kool Aid
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This is an interesting topic. I sometimes shoot my SIG P-225 which has an 8 round magazine. It also has an unfortunate placement of the slide catch which I often hold down with my thumb. To get around this I have been doing RWR's to avoid the click which indicates and empty gun on a closed slide. Reloading and working the slide is slower than my RWR.

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and then for cdp you have what i call "the shelby load" after glenn. shoot the gun to slide lock, do a slide lock reload and then do an immediate rwr so you're back at 9 again. you do this when you'd be required to do a reload for just one shot at the end of a stage in cdp. do the two reloads at once. but that's a whole other topic and something used very rarely.

Rowdy,

Hey, I could have used that last week, had I even thought of it.

Thanks for the idea.

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This is an interesting topic. I sometimes shoot my SIG P-225 which has an 8 round magazine. It also has an unfortunate placement of the slide catch which I often hold down with my thumb. To get around this I have been doing RWR's to avoid the click which indicates and empty gun on a closed slide. Reloading and working the slide is slower than my RWR.

It's easier to just keep you thumb off the slide catch lever. :goof:

On topic, I'm glad the RWR is back. It's a nice party trick technique that, like others have mentioned, can save some time if there's movement involved.

t

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One would think keeping ones thumb off a SIG slide catch would be THE answer. But in actual practice it hasn't been that easy.

I know a lot of folks have issues with it. I chose, a long time ago, to modify my thumbs forward grip to remedy the problem, but that's because I predominantly shoot Sigs b/c of work constraints. Sliding the strong hand thumb laterally over a touch onto the root/base of your support hand thumb is a grip solution that remedies the issue for 99% of folks, IME. FWIW.

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taadski,

Unlike you I don't have to stay with the SIG but it carries so well and safely in my preferred AWIB carry position. It's also light but large enough to shoot well. I do try to train myself to slide the thumb over, it just hasn't been a reliable solution, so far...

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  • 2 weeks later...

Some of the masters I shoot with will RWR. You can begin to move with the gun in battery while you're stowing your mag so bringing the mag up when grabbing the other can be an asset, if you're any good at it. You just can't start shooting until the mag is stowed. I started wearing "Cool Guy" Tru Spec pants because the pockets make stowing mags stupid easy to the shoots for this reason.

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