Reload with retention when at slide lock

[Danforth]

Had this come up at a recent monthly match. COF was limited vickers and called for a reload with retention at Position 1 before moving to Position 2 and completing the COF. Shooter in question shot gun empty to slide lock at P1 and retained magazine when reloading. He finished engaging the targets at P1 and moved to P2 without any further reloads. SO gave shooter a procedural penalty for not performing a proper reload with retention stating that, since the shooter ran the gun dry to slide lock, he actually performed an 'emergency reload'. I argued that, since he actually 'retained' the magazine, it qualified as a 'reload with retention'. MD was consulted and ultimately upheld the procedural. I, and others, continue to disagree and, would like some clarification/consensus on the issue.

The MD used literal interpretations of 3.4.1 and 3.4.2 to come to his decision.

thanks,

Dan

[afoulk]

By the letter of the rule, the gun wasn't partially loaded so 3.4.2 doesn't apply.

However, the MD could have applied common sense and founders intent per 1.3.2.3 to overturn the procedural if he gained no advantage. He also could have used 1.3.2.3 to give the shooter an FTDR if he gamed the stage to avoid an extra reload, so that really doesn't mean much.

[davsco]

did the COF say to do reload with retention after all targets were engaged at P1 and immediately before moving to P2? maybe that was why the procedural was issued, not that he didn't do a RWR, he just didn't do it immediately before changing positions.

[racknrider]

Since it was limited Vickers, it sounds like he must have commited some error. Either gun not loaded to appropriate capacity or too many shots fired. May need more elaboration.

Edited March 11, 2015 by racknrider

[Danforth]

The COF required 12 rounds fired from P1 with a reload with retention at any time before moving to P2. The MD's rationale was that, since the gun had been run empty to slide lock, the reload was an 'emergency reload' regardless of the magazine being retained.

edit to add; there was no advantage gained by the shooter in question.

Edited March 11, 2015 by Danforth

[MAC702]

EDIT: I'm deleting these comments, in favor of my new post at #9.

Edited March 11, 2015 by MAC702

[racknrider]

So for ESP/SSP fire 11 shots, do emergency reload, fire 1 more shot then do tac reload? Sounds like poor stage design or a MD trying to be clever. Was the 2nd reload done at P1?

[Danforth]

The requirements for a second reload were not mandated. Stage called for 18 rounds. Only ESR & SSR (REV) shooters had to make a second reload at P1, as per the standard rules.

Everythings else aside, the question/issue is: by an exact letter/word reading of 3.4.1 and 3.4.2, where a reload with retention has been mandated in the COF, if the shooter runs the gun dry to slide lock but retains the magazine when reloading, is that an 'emergency reload' or does it satisfy the requirements for a 'reload with retention'?

The arguement given and held by the MD that, as per 3.4.2, a reload with retention requires the gun to be partially loaded (round in chamber) as well as the magazine being retained. Since the gun was shot empty to slide lock, there was no round in the chamber and therefor, even though the empty magazine was retained, it was an 'emergency reload' not the mandated 'reload with retention'.

[MAC702]

I'm replacing my earlier comments because I missed a critical piece of information on my previous reads of the situation: the RWR could happen anytime during those 12-shots. Perhaps it was the intention of the stage that the shooter be keeping track sufficiently so as to not get caught with an empty gun.

I agree the letter of the rule saying that the gun will be loaded during an RWR. I would not say it "requires" it, but more that it just assumes it. I now need to review whether or not the shooter can be faulted for failing to keep track of rounds sufficiently so as not to be caught with an empty gun.

The shooter was still at a disadvantage during the actual reload itself, but may have been at an advantage in not keeping track of rounds fired during the previous shooting.

Edited March 11, 2015 by MAC702

[Danforth]

Mac, I'm still not clear on where you stand on this. First you state that you agree with the letter of the rule but, then you imply that the gun being empty or not is irrelevant to the action required. Did the shooter comply with the mandated RWR or, did he earn the P by shooting the gun to slide lock?

[MAC702]

I apologize for the confusion. I edited my thoughts a few times after post review. My final edit has this conclusion:

I now need to review whether or not the shooter can be faulted for failing to keep track of rounds sufficiently so as not to be caught with an empty gun.

The shooter was still at a disadvantage during the actual reload itself, but may have been at an advantage in not keeping track of rounds fired during the previous shooting.

[MAC702]

Honestly, after thinking about this through an entire cup of coffee, and now three reads through the rules, I'm leaning in favor of the RO. I think the intention of the course was to keep track of rounds so as not to be caught with an empty gun. The course description should probably have been written more clearly and instructions should have anticipated the confusion and cleared it ahead of time before any shooter had started.

If a shooter failed to keep track, and had an empty gun, I'm now thinking he'd have to do an emergency reload, fire the 12th shot, do an RWR, and boogie.

[Danforth]

The stage was basically stage 3 of the classifier, slightly modified. So, P1 was a bianchi barricade requiring 6 rounds from one side and 6 rounds from the other which was forced by a visual barrier. The stage description only required a RWR at any time before moving to P2. The question, as a general issue, remains: Does a reload with the gun at slide lock (empty) where the magazine is retained, qualify as a RWR or is it an 'emergency reload'?

[racknrider]

It is called a loaded chamber reload in the rule book. However, it does not specifically state that any ammunition must be in the gun during the reload, only that all live ammo and mags must be retained. Usually anything not specifically prohibited is allowed. I've not seen this before and it is an interesting question. I would give no PE.

Hopefully, I'll be attending a SO cert class soon, and if I can remember I'll ask about this.

[MAC702]

It is called a loaded chamber reload in the rule book. However, it does not specifically state that any ammunition must be in the gun during the reload, only that all live ammo and mags must be retained....

Good point. We are so used to calling it a RWR or Tactical Reload, that I forgot its official (maybe newer) name is Loaded Chamber Reload.

However, it does say "reload the firearm when it is partially loaded." [Rule 3.4.2] So that would be a loaded chamber for a semi-auto or at least one loaded cartridge remaining in a cylinder.

I'm leaning even more heavily to agreeing with the RO's call for a PE.

Edited March 11, 2015 by MAC702

[chasbo00]

From the rulebook:

3.4 IDPA Reloads

There are only two (2) IDPA approved reloads:

3.4.1 Slide Lock/Empty Cylinder Reload (also known as an Emergency Reload) Slide Lock/ Empty Cylinder Reload - recharge the

firearm when it is empty and/or out of live ammo.

3.4.2 Loaded Cylinder/Loaded Chamber Reload (also known as a Tactical Reload or Reload with Retention) Loaded

Chamber/Loaded Cylinder Reload – reload the firearm when it is partially loaded while retaining any live ammunition

from the firearm and/or the magazine that came out of the firearm even if the magazine is empty.

The rulebook is clear regarding what constitutes a Loaded Cylinder/Loaded Chamber Reload (also known as a Tactical Reload or Reload with Retention). The gun has to be loaded. If the standards stage description specifically called for this type reload and the shooter reloaded an empty gun, then the shooter did not perform the correct reload. A PE is appropriate despite the fact that reload performed provided no competitive advantage.

Edited March 13, 2015 by chasbo00

[SmurfJet]

As a non-IDPA shooter without a dog in the fight I can state unequivocally that a clear reading of 3.4.2 requires for there to be ammo in the gun. Occam's razor and all that jazz....

[okorpheus]

Seems like silly stage design, but the rules interpretation is correct.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Edited April 22, 2015 by okorpheus

[Ty Hamby]

1 PE. There are only two types of reloads in IDPA. Loaded chamber reload requires the firearm to be partially loaded. The shooter wasted time retaining the magazine as he performed his emergency reload.

[mcb]

By the letter of the rule, the gun wasn't partially loaded so 3.4.2 doesn't apply.

However, the MD could have applied common sense and founders intent per 1.3.2.3 to overturn the procedural if he gained no advantage. He also could have used 1.3.2.3 to give the shooter an FTDR if he gamed the stage to avoid an extra reload, so that really doesn't mean much.

afoulk, rule 1.3.2.3 seems like your favorite hammer and ever IDPA rule problem you see looks like a nail.

[afoulk]

It is the universal argument ender. Roughly equivalent to "because I said so."

[Craig N]

Had this come up at a recent monthly match. COF was limited vickers and called for a reload with retention at Position 1 before moving to Position 2 and completing the COF. Shooter in question shot gun empty to slide lock at P1 and retained magazine when reloading. He finished engaging the targets at P1 and moved to P2 without any further reloads. SO gave shooter a procedural penalty for not performing a proper reload with retention stating that, since the shooter ran the gun dry to slide lock, he actually performed an 'emergency reload'. I argued that, since he actually 'retained' the magazine, it qualified as a 'reload with retention'. MD was consulted and ultimately upheld the procedural. I, and others, continue to disagree and, would like some clarification/consensus on the issue.

The MD used literal interpretations of 3.4.1 and 3.4.2 to come to his decision.

thanks,

Dan

There is the crux of what the SO is meaning. There was a mandatory reload required before moving to Position 2. Just because the shooter ran outta ammo before he finished up at P1 doesn't mean he doesn't have to perform the required action before moving to P2. It sucks to have to do a slide lock reload shoot 1 round then do a tac reload but that's what the should have done per the COF.

[45 Raven]

I really enjoy IDPA shooting. But stage designs that result in conversations like this are slowly draining the fun out of the sport. I know, if I don;'t like it, I don;t have to participate, But it's a shame that goofy rules can impact a great sport like this.

[Sac Law Man]

First, the stage should never have been allowed.. . IDPA discourages shooters from having to count rounds and somehow figure out a good time to perform a reload to fall within the COF requirements. The whole idea behind the loaded chamber reload is we don't know how many rounds are in the gun, and to avoid going dry at an inopportune we perform this type of reload. This is also the same reason we cannot mandate these reloads during a scenario. A standard exercise should be the same for everyone, its a drill.

In this scenario, you are penalizing the shooter for not counting his shots. To answer the question posed by the OP, the PE for the reload would not be the call, but failure to follow the COF should be.

Edited May 11, 2015 by Sac Law Man