Can grass deflect rifle bullets?

[Religious Shooter]

At A2 there were two stages where you could see the targets but blades of grass were in the way (pretty much from the shooting area to the target --- it wasn't localized).

In one stage it was about 200 yards and in another it was around 380 yards.

Is it possible that the a handfull of grass can deflect the bullet enough to miss at those ranges?

[George]

A single blade of grass, maybe not. A whole clump of crabgrass, yes.

And remember, the sight is at least 2.5 inches higher than the barrel and if you are seeing foliage in the sights, the barrel may be seeing twigs, or even dirt!

--

Regards,

[TMC]

I talked with Benny about this because thats what I though. What I didn't consider and he did (because he's Benny Cooley) is that just because you can see the grass doesn't mean you bullets is going to go through it. At 350 or 400 yards your arching your bullet up quite a bit so the bullet would not come anywhere near the ground on that stage.

[George]

Todd, I see what you mean about the trajectory “usually” being over mid-range foliage. It’s the stuff you hit up close that’s always gonna be big trouble.

Now if the target is at 200 yards, a .223 is only rising about 1.5” over line of sight on the way to the target and the bets are off again. Ya flings yer lead and ya takes yer chances.

[TMC]

Your right Geoff, but I think the stage he's talking about had flashers at 300 and 350 but the grass we were looking through was about 125-150, so I think Benny was right. There was no grass close to the rifle.

[kellyn]

Grass and vegatation can F^$K you over!!!!

In 2002, I tried to shoot through some brush to save some time at the 3 Gun Nats. The targets were about 2-4 feet behind the brush. The brush was that crappy scrub brush in Vegas. I figured no problemo since I was shooting 140 grain 6.5 mm bullets (talk about some real BC!!) at 2600 fps and the bullet only had to go 2-4 feet past the brush and the farthest shot was about 20 yards. I WAS WRONG!!!!!! I had 2 or 3 mikes from deflected bullets and had 2 hits which which were very impressive keyholes. Brush, vegetation, insects, grass, etc. are evil when it comes to bullets and should be avoided at all costs.

[diehli]

Grass and vegatation can F^$K you over!!!!

In 2002, I tried to shoot through some brush to save some time at the 3 Gun Nats. The targets were about 2-4 feet behind the brush. The brush was that crappy scrub brush in Vegas. I figured no problemo since I was shooting 140 grain 6.5 mm bullets (talk about some real BC!!) at 2600 fps and the bullet only had to go 2-4 feet past the brush and the farthest shot was about 20 yards. I WAS WRONG!!!!!! I had 2 or 3 mikes from deflected bullets and had 2 hits which which were very impressive keyholes. Brush, vegetation, insects, grass, etc. are evil when it comes to bullets and should be avoided at all costs.

Hrm... I had an opposite experience shooting my FF40 at the CA Infinity match last year. There was a "Jungle Run" stage and you could draw to a target about 4-5 yards away that was behind a bunch of (thin) branches about 1 yard in front of the target. Wound up w/ A-C on that target (saw the C) and I definitely hit some branches (saw one fly on the first shot and caught a second falling out of the corner of my eye as I left). 180 grain bullets at about 990fps.

Could it have been you, Kelly? Either way, I probably won't do it again.

[Jake Di Vita]

I dunno about the grass, but the brim of a hat can deflect a .308 round if hit right on the tip.

[D.Hayden]

Sort of on topic...

I saw a great deal of deflection on bullets that hit the close camo netting (on Stage 10?), many bullets were hitting the paper sideways, leaving a perfect profile of the bullets. It was an eye opener for me, that they would move so much, with targets so close (most commonly seen on the first 3 left side targets - 8yds or so, and these were not 2x4 support hits)

[David Benzick]

On the 340 yard plates at Area 2 I didn't rest on the magazine like usual, but held the rifle up off the ground in prone just to avoid the grass deflection. Didn't consider bullet trajectory. Oh well .

You want to talk about deflection, on stage 10 with the camo netting, the first target I engaged with two beautiful sight pictures had not a mark on it. My rounds passed thru the 2x4 support for the tent structure (holdover) and ended up who knows where. Nothing like two mikes on an otherwise solid stage.

Nothing like three gun to really kick your butt around the range.

Later

Dave

[kurtm]

History is being made!! KellyN and I agree yet again!!

YES!!! ONE BLADE OF GRASS CAN DEFLECT A BULLET!!!!! Bullet performance through brush/grass is very capricious! Some times yes sometimes no....most the time NO!!! As some have noted even a foot or two is enough to see a complete miss if a little grass or brush is penetrated or brushed. If you think of that little bullet ( to include .50 cal BMG ) as a supper spinning basket ball and you boounce that ball on anything it will really jump off course. Yea Benny has a point, BUT if anything tickles that bullet as it is climbing or falling it won't even be in the same county when it comes back down. Get above any and all grass or brush, or find a hole through it. If you have to shoot through ANY brush or grass expect a hit ratio of about 12% and act accordingly. KURTM

[Loves2Shoot]

I dunno about the grass, but the brim of a hat can deflect a .308 round if hit right on the tip.

Do I even dare ask how you know that one?

[Patrick Sweeney]

Stand back, earth beings, time for the professor to weigh in. Yes, a blade of grass can deflect a bullet. And, no it can't. It depends on where in the bullets flight the impact happens.

Early on, a bullet is unstable. It is "settling down" from being fired, and prone to yaw. How far it has to travel depends on many things, like how close to unstable your twist is for that bullet, how off-center the bullet mass is to its shape, and if it is close to the speed of sound.

If you strike an object close-in, your bullet will find some other object to hit. Some other object than the one you intended. However, if you have the same grass 200 yards downrange, the bullet will drill through a bale of grass to get where it is going. By then the bullet has reached stability ("gone to sleep" is what the old-timers called it) and the impacted object has little effect on the gyroscopic stability of the bullet.

The classic example is in Hatcher's Notebook. At 50 yards, he had a .30-06 FMJ penetrate 10 inches of oak planking, on a constant arc. At 200, it drilled straight through 36 inches.

So, close-in, you aren't going to slam your rifle bullet through any intermediate object and get a scoring hit. "Out there", you can count on it. I hate close-in soft cover in 3-gun matches. Anything can happen.

[TMC]

So, close-in, you aren't going to slam your rifle bullet through any intermediate object and get a scoring hit. "Out there", you can count on it. I hate close-in soft cover in 3-gun matches. Anything can happen.

So basically what your saying is a bullet needs a running start.

Maybe Bill Cosby was right, putting you finger in the barrel of a gun pointed at you will keep you from getting shot?

[rhino]

In addition to what Mr. Sweeney said, there's also the fact that a minute (as in tiny) angular deflection at the beginning of a bullet's path can put it way, way off target down range just because of geometry. Hitting something very close to the point of impact allows for less deflection before it hit, all else being equal (which it usually isn't anyway).

[kellyn]

Kurt, that sometimes yes and sometimes no factor depends entirely on the importance of the match that you are shooting in. Not important match, bullet will slam through a blade of grass, a tree, windshield and a rock to hit the target in the middle of the A zone. Important match, bullet will deflect into no shoot target off of a blade of grass or random flying insect. Call it Neal's 1st Law of Deflection, something Hatcher did not put in his notebook.

My mikes were direct shots from about 15 to 20 yards to the target with brush ( a bit thicker than grass to be sure) only 1-2 yards in front of nearly full sized IPSC targets.

[Larry White]

I shot two rds at a target thur a very lite bush last year, about 2 yds to the bush and 2 more to the target. Got both hits, but they both went thru side ways.---Larry

[benny hill]

When shooting through ANYTHING, I alway's shoot 3/4 times, most times the hits are there, sometimes not.

[kurtm]

Oh great guru of the sleeping bullet, I have seen them deflect way out there also. If Mr. Hatcher had just ticked the side of the Oak PLank at 200 yds he would have been hard pressed to measure anything as the bullet WOULD have deflected. I have seen .223 and .308s dance off cactus out past 400 yds. I have seen the bullets go sraight through prickly pear paddles at 250yds and miss the Prairie dog a scant 3 feet behind, as I watched the bullet hit some 12-15 degrees away from intended target. Granted it isn't just a piece of grass but it is only 1/4" thick and soooo soft that you can stick a pencil through it with just slight pressure. Fence wire?? I have seen it dancing in the scope after the 3rd miss on Prairie dogs at 175, and just can't figure out why it wouldnt hit the dog untill I realize I'm caressing the wire with some consistency. I guess I'm going to have to start pouring Tylenol P.M. over my bullets as they don't seem to be sleeping that well. KURTM

[Sam]

I was shooting .308 from behind tall grass last week at 300-350. When I examined the grass, it was hard to tell if the bullet mowed it down or if it was the muzzle blast. (no brake on this gun) I do recall one solid hit on an 8" gong that cut right through a 3/4" sage brush limb, leaving a clear bullet hole, about 3 feet in front of the muzzle. Would I count on this happening in a match? Never!

[Patrick Sweeney]

Mann, in "The Bullet's Flight" conducted experiments as to just how close he could get a bullet to travel to an object before the object would start to cause problems with accuracy or point of impact.

The end result was as close to scientifically-measured voodoo as you could come up with. Will bullets deflect? You bet. Will they drill straight through? Sure thing. Is there such a thing as a guarantee? not a chance.

If I'm shooting at targets close by behind soft cover, I'll use the "Hill Drill" (thank you Benny.) 'Way out there, I'll hold and squeeze and depend on bullet stability. Either way, if I don't have enough hits I'll be very annoyed at myself.

[Paule]

I watched a lot of folks shoot the stage at Area 2 where this happened. All the deflections I saw were on the two swingers far left at 140 yards. From the spot where many shooters went prone these targets were practically unshootable due to a small rise in the terrain a short distance from the shooter. The guys who set up on a 40 round mag were okay, but everyone else was shooting grooves in the landscape. If I remember correctly, Benny Cooley shot those two targets from the barricade before he went prone. I never saw anyone hit the ground on the long targets (180 - 382 yds), they were clear.