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Rudukai13

Sig MPX-P Open Pistol

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Hey everyone! First, let me say I wasn't sure exactly where the right place to put this topic is, so to the moderators if this is in the wrong section of the forum please move it wherever it should be.

Now, the reason I'm posting this thread is to discuss an idea that I've had for a while now. For years I've loved the idea of a race gun - lightweight, fast, powerful, accurate. Tuned machines that combine form and function to produce masterpieces of engineering and art. In addition, for nearly as long I've had a passion for AR-type and similar platforms, but in particular I really honestly am enthralled with the relatively recent trend of manufacturers releasing pistol versions of their well-known rifles and carbines. I recently acquired a new Sig Sauer P516 AR pistol, chambered in 5.56 with 7.5" barrel, and it has quickly and without question established itself as my current favorite gun. The reason I'm explaining all of this is because I only recently had a laughably strange thought, that has snowballed into a serious curiosity...

Would it be possible to build an Open division race gun out of a pistol-caliber carbine-based pistol? I have one specific in mind - The new Sig MPX-P, a new proprietary platform developed by Sig, modular in design and available in a pistol variant. Here are some of the most important specs of the platform, if you're interested in reading about it more thoroughly please head over to Sig's product page (I would post a link but can't yet);

- Chambered in 9mm, .40S&W or .357SIG

- 8 inch barrel

- 10, 20, and 30 round mags available

- Side-folding stock with AR buffer tube and pistol stabilizing brace is removable (and would be removed for my purposes)

Now, a quick disclaimer before I get laughed off the forum - I'm not insane. I am in NO WAY expecting a giant six or seven pound rifle-pistol to be competitive with and stand a chance of beating a highly-tuned, featherweight 2011. If winning was my goal, I'd be thinking about an STI or similar, a traditional more compact handgun. All I want to accomplish with this build would be to simply have some fun, do something differently than everyone else, and end up with a unique, enjoyable oddball of a pistol for my collection.

As for more specifically which competitions set of Open Division regulations I wanted to frame my build within, another long-time favorite came to mind - Action Pistol/The Bianchi Cup. Much to my delight, after reading through the official rulebook for AP, I found there are nearly no limitations set on Open Division pistols. In fact the gist of my understanding of regulations for AP Open is "If it's safe, and it shoots at least a 9mm or bigger, you're good to go.". Not only that but I've always loved the brute, raw functionality of the open division guns - with raw blocks of metal on either side of the barrel shroud as barricade wings, tubular red dots, compensators, grip tape plastered all over the gun. That's the style in which I would like to modify an MPX.

So, with everything I've just said, I'd like to hear from the experienced AP Open division shooters about this idea. When commenting, PLEASE keep in mind that I am NOT thinking I can slap a red dot and a couple wings on the the rails of this massive "pistol" and have even the slimmest chance at beating a race gun that's been designed, engineered and manufactured from the ground up, three times over, to win an Open Division title in AP. All I really need to know is if I've missed anything that would specifically bar the use of such a pistol-caliber carbine-pistol as the MPX-P? Everything I was able to get my hands on regarding the rules of the various divisions in AP/Bianchi would seem to imply that in the Open Division, truly anything that's safe is allowed to run. Is that a correct understanding?

Lastly, before anyone says it, I know I'd have significant problems with finding a workable holster for the platform, just set aside that concern for now.

Please post comments, thoughts, questions, etc. - Constructive criticism is always welcome, as long as it is constructive. Thank you all in advance!

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Edited by Rudukai13

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I love the idea of a race gun - lightweight, fast, powerful, accurate. I acquired a Sig Sauer P516 AR pistol and it is

my favorite gun.

Is it possible to build an Open race gun out of a pistol-caliber carbine-based pistol?

- Chambered in 9mm, .40S&W or .357SIG

- 8 inch barrel

I don't expect a seven pound rifle-pistol to be competitive with a 2011.

My Question is: Have I missed anything that would bar the use of such a pistol-caliber carbine-pistol? the rules of AP/Bianchi seem to imply that in the Open Division, anything that's safe is allowed to run. Is that a correct understanding?

Rudakai, I don't know the answer, but as an assist to anyone who might, I've

condensed your post (above) to make it easier/faster for people to read your

question. :cheers:

(I Didn't have anything else to do, and I had to read your original post

three times to understand the question).

You understand that the gun you're proposing offers no advantages over

an STI, but you're wondering if the gun would be LEGAL in USPSA / Bianchi? :cheers:

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The OP isn't interested in problems/practical solutions -

only question he has is:

Is it USPSA/Bianchi legal to cut down an AR to a pistol?

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I hadn't asked anyone to create a shorter summary but I do appreciate it! Thank you Hi-Power Jack!

RangerTrace, in the unabridged original post I do note that I already know finding a holster would be one large hurdle, but I wanted to set that issue aside for the moment and, as Jack mentioned, just determine if the gun itself would be legal to use in an Open division?

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The OP isn't interested in problems/practical solutions -

only question he has is:

Is it USPSA/Bianchi legal to cut down an AR to a pistol?

This, but I'd modify it a bit and say; Is specifically the new Sig Sauer MPX-P 9mm "pistol" legal to use in the Open division of USPSA/Bianchi/other pistol shooting regulations?

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The OP isn't interested in problems/practical solutions -

only question he has is:

Is it USPSA/Bianchi legal to cut down an AR to a pistol?

This, but I'd modify it a bit and say; Is specifically the new Sig Sauer MPX-P 9mm "pistol" legal to use in the Open division of USPSA/Bianchi/other pistol shooting regulations?

Well, I tried to post the open gun rules, but the forum wouldn't let me do it. So, the only thing that jumped out to me was the maximum mag length of 171 mm. I have no idea what lengths are available to an AR....

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I've been tearing through the rulebook trying to find anything that would prohibit it. 5.1.10 prohibits foregrips and shoulder stocks. Would the rail be considered a forgrip? I think not but, what would NROI say?

If it does turn out to be legal I'd love to see it!

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I've been tearing through the rulebook trying to find anything that would prohibit it. 5.1.10 prohibits foregrips and shoulder stocks. Would the rail be considered a forgrip? I think not but, what would NROI say?

If it does turn out to be legal I'd love to see it!

When I think foregrips I picture the downward grips attached to the rails, but you have a good point.....

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I'd be removing the arm brace from the back completely, no shoulder stock, so that's not a concern. The only thing I have to go on for the definition of a "foregrip" is the ATF's classification, which says it's fine to have quad rails and the like surrounding the barrel of a carbine-based pistol, but you can't attach an actual foregrip to it...If that makes any sense?

So nobody can find anything that specifically states it would be against the rules?

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As far as a holster goes (I know that isn't the question at hand, but bear with me) I recently saw a rifle scabbard that was mounted to the door frame of a jeep made of kydex. So if you decide it is legal, it seems that it wouldn't be impossible to make a holster for such a beast.

::ETA:: http://www.wranglerforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=1628122&d=1415403584

Edited by Gooldylocks

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Well, after a lot of research, scouring through rule books for any possible issue, I believe I've come to the conclusion that there is not anything that would specifically disqualify a rifle-based pistol to compete in the Open division. Assuming I can find someone who could make a workable holster for it, I am absolutely going to persue this build!

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Well, after a lot of research, scouring through rule books for any possible issue, I believe I've come to the conclusion that there is not anything that would specifically disqualify a rifle-based pistol to compete in the Open division. Assuming I can find someone who could make a workable holster for it, I am absolutely going to persue this build!

You should find somewhere to measure the various magazines available before you go too far down the rabbit hole. They use the MP5 style mags, so I'm not sure if they will make the 171.25mm requirement. It seems pertinent to confirm that first.

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Regarding magazines and a holster - this might sound a bit odd, but I'm not nearly as concerned with knowing that they are legal for competition than I was with the pistol itself. To be honest, I've never shot competitively before, don't have much drive to, and can't really see myself ever attending more than one, maybe two matches a year at most.

Most of why I posed this question is because is simply because I wanted to take two things that I'm very interested in and fascinated by - AR-style platforms and full-on Open division race guns - and see if I could bring them together in a single build/project. I wanted to try to use a platform that was as close to within the confines of the actual rules for the same competition as possible, to know that I COULD use the gun to compete with, but knowing that I CAN will be enough for me.

More likely than not this pistol will end up as just an oddball range toy - a rhinoceros in a cheetah suit.

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Thanks for posting the link! All very informative. Going into asking the question I'd accepted that any kind of carbine-based pistol wouldn't be anything remotely close to competitive with a 1911 or 2011 platform. I'm honestly most interested in the idea of building a big AR-type Open pistol not for winning, but just to do something so dramatically different, and to have fun.

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