Lumosity as part of a USPSA traning regimine?

[jkrispies]

I joined/bought the app for Lumosity about a week ago. Luminosity is basically a brain training website supposedly designed by neuroscientists who are sharing their collective data with other brain researchers. The website recommends a 10-minute "brain workout" three times per week, though I'm playing more than that now. I enjoy playing these deceptively simple yet challenging games--I'm a nerd like that--and as a professional educator I'm confident these games really are designed with the input of brain researchers, as claimed.

I've found one of the games (Pet Detective) to be challenging, exactly as I'm challenged by stage planning: both Pet Detective and stage planning require the player to perform a series of actions spanning from Point A to Point Z using the fewest number of steps. At matches, it seems like the M's and GM's always manage a plan that is a step or two less than mine. I'm hopeful that this game (in addition to the others) will help me in my stage planning.

A few of the other games require not only quick thinking but also "quick seeing." I'm curious if anybody else on this site has tried Lumosity and has similar feelings about it? If so, do you find any games more beneficial than others, particularly with regards to USPSA style shooting?

Does anybody know of other sites/apps like Lumosity that are worth looking at?

Thanks,

J

PS: If anybody decides to join Lumosity based on learning about it from this thread, some adivice... When signing up, you can play it either on a regular computer or smart phone/tablet device, or multiple devices that link with each other. I've found that the majority of games are much more intuitive with a touch screen, but from the instructions it sounds like more games are available when used on a computer. If I were to start fresh, I would have started on a tablet only; I'm sure my overall score (Lumosity Performance Index, or LPI) would be higher if I only played it on a touch screen. Because the LPI is a cummulative score, you're hurting yourself overall by starting off weak, as I did, if you find yourself hampered by a keyboard or mouse vs. the touch screen. Having said that, I'm not deep enough into the program to see what more is available on the computer. As I learn all the games, I think I'll find that some games are better on a computer with a keyboard (for speed when typing words, for instance) whereas others are better on a touch screen, and I may pick-and-choose the game based on the device I'm on at the time. For the most part, though, the vast majority of the games I've seen so far are better done on a touch screen for purposes of speed (which is often taken into account as part of your score), than manipulating a mouse or using the arrow keys on the keyboard. Just something to bear in mind when beginning the program...

[johnsons1480]

I subscribed for awhile, then I dumped it. I did my research into it, and didn't like what I found. You get better at the games because you keep playing the games. You get better at anything you keep doing repetitively. The problem is, the games don't make you better at anything else. So the time you spend playing the game doesn't deliver on the promised it makes.

Seth M. Johnson

[P.E. Kelley]

I subscribed for awhile, then I dumped it. I did my research into it, and didn't like what I found. You get better at the games because you keep playing the games. You get better at anything you keep doing repetitively. The problem is, the games don't make you better at anything else. So the time you spend playing the game doesn't deliver on the promised it makes.

Seth M. Johnson

That is Lumosity in a nutshell.

[jkrispies]

So it sounds like the games don't develop over time to fit the individual needs of the member? If these just stay the same... then, yeah, I see exactly what you mean.

[repins1911]

I tried it out for a month and decided to stop. Like others stated you get good through repetition. The things that I know for certain work on memory and situational awareness are target detection exercises and KIM's (keep in memory). Both were introduced to me in sniper school years ago and they no doubt work as intended. Look them up and give it a shot, better to do with other shooters so you can alternate setting up the course. The KIM's don't require much space or resources, the TD's a little more effort.

[johnsons1480]

Do some research on dual n-back memory games. I believe I read that those were proven effective. Don't feel bad, I fell for it too. It sounds so appealing, but it's based on junk science.

Seth M. Johnson

[mike cyrwus]

I tried it out for a month and decided to stop. Like others stated you get good through repetition. The things that I know for certain work on memory and situational awareness are target detection exercises and KIM's (keep in memory). Both were introduced to me in sniper school years ago and they no doubt work as intended. Look them up and give it a shot, better to do with other shooters so you can alternate setting up the course. The KIM's don't require much space or resources, the TD's a little more effort.

can you elaborate on the KIM's? Not familiar with them

[repins1911]

KIM's games are typically ten objects. They can be close together on a poncho or spread out on a lawn. You only have a set amount of time to observe the objects usually not more than 90 seconds total. But the observation time is broken up in to four or five blocks and under some type of physical stress. Push ups, jogging in place whatever you want. At the end, you will number a piece of paper 1-10, draw picture of the item, list size, shape, and what it appears to be. The game can last as little as five minutes to as long as an hour or two as you progress. The length of time is from when you last observed the objects to when you record them. When you have done the games for a while you can observe the objects and then do a target detection and then record the objects from the KIM's game. After doing this for about three to four times a week for three or more weeks you will start to notice everything around you when driving, taking a walk, or at work. May seem a little silly the first time you do the exercises but they work.

[jkrispies]

If Lumosity doesn't deliver an individualized program (ie, increasingly difficult and varied tasks based on individual user results) as promised, then yeah it's totally a scam for what it promises to do. I won't argue that, and I certainly won't defend Lumosity to be something it isn't.

But to play devil's advocate to the real point of my inquiry... As stated above: "You get better at the games because you keep playing the games. You get better at anything you keep doing repetitively." If I'm looking to improve my stage planning in regards to fewest steps needed to complete a task... I can't spend XX minutes a day running stages in a variety of ways to determine the most efficient foot path (because I don't have a fully outfitted shooting bay in my backyard that magically rearranges itself every night) but I can play Pet Detective for a few minutes on my phone while I'm sitting in a waiting room. That would give me practice at planning efficient movement, and I would hope that effort could transfer into other areas. I'm not an expert in Keep In Memory exercises, but there are some simple games on this app that rely on memory as well... and doing it is doing it.

Johnsons1480, I'll investigate n-back memory games to see if I can find something there. Repins1911, I REALLY like how you explain that KIM games make you more aware of the inputs provided in your surrounds-- this is far more valuable than simple memorization. However, I'd like to be clear that I'm not looking to simply build my memory. In many respects, I'm not interested in that at all. Memorization alone is a lower-level thinking domain (see Bloom's taxonomy and others). Rather, I'd like to find something that develops my clarity and speed of analysis and problem solving. In USPSA terms, I'd like to develop my skill set to become a better "gamer" who QUICKLY spots that one ultra-subtle quirk in a stage's design that I can spend the rest of my 4-minute walk-through time rehearsing for a huge advantage in my course execution. Right now, I'm not that gamer, and I want to be that gamer!!!

Is there an app, board game--whatever--out there which can help with this?

Hey, if nothing else, that's the sort of game that I'd find to be fun to play!!! Help me find it.

[mgardner]

I subscribed for awhile, then I dumped it. I did my research into it, and didn't like what I found. You get better at the games because you keep playing the games. You get better at anything you keep doing repetitively. The problem is, the games don't make you better at anything else. So the time you spend playing the game doesn't deliver on the promised it makes.

Seth M. Johnson

What he said. ^^^^^^

[johnsons1480]

I think your time would be better spent dry firing small stages around your house. I set one up recently that I've been attacking in different ways trying to reduce my par time. It would help with realizing what you can do in a certain amount of time, and help with movement in and out of position. I feel like that would be time much better spent. If you feel like the game helps you more than dry fire would, then keep at it. Placebo effects are real, and they can boost your performance because you think you can do better. Confidence is great, get it where you can.

Seth M. Johnson

[mgardner]

Luminosity appeals to my ego and makes me a genius in my own mind. USPSA just delivers a weekly lesson and butt kicking and keeps me in reality. LOL

[Steve RA]

I tried the "freebie" Lumosity come on and it was interesting. Agree with the above, if you kept doing it you would get better at that game but I really could not see how there would be a lot of improvement in any other area.

[Jammer1911]

Skip the luminosity and dry-fire. Seems it with give you the results. Practice through repetition. Sounds like what Luminosty is promising just that at a cost. Dry fire is cheap (Free)

Look up and read about Mylination of the brain. JMHO!

[Robco]

I think your time would be better spent dry firing small stages around your house. I set one up recently that I've been attacking in different ways trying to reduce my par time. It would help with realizing what you can do in a certain amount of time, and help with movement in and out of position. I feel like that would be time much better spent. If you feel like the game helps you more than dry fire would, then keep at it. Placebo effects are real, and they can boost your performance because you think you can do better. Confidence is great, get it where you can.

Seth M. Johnson

I agree strongly with my Texas bro, johnsons1480. I have not tried any of these game/tools, so bear that in mind. But I think many have pointed out here that getting better at a game that is not shooting, is not likely a winner on any type of cost/benefit analysis.

If I understand what you are trying to do J, is to increase you stage analysis skills, then I would think = what better way to do that than by actually doing stage analysis practice? Along the lines of stage analysis skills, the first thing would be to define the goal, and then to apply a standardized, regular process of approaching each and every stage to be analyzed.

Goal = most points per second (HF). This has to also be weighed against risk management considerations (N/S, Hard cover-partials, forced to leave a position on steel, critical timing sequences based on an activation, etc.) as well as your own strengths and weaknesses.

Here is my stage analysis process in short.

1) Read the Stage description - note start position, gun condition, scoring (VA count, etc.) types of targets and any special mind-screw stuff like holding a brief case, etc, target counts and round count.

2) WALK the stage without even putting up the "airgun," or making ANY presumptions yet. Locate the targets and make sure none are hidden and not seen by you. Go behind the walls and look there too.

3) Determine, relaxed again, where some targets can be seen from or not, and what locations are therefore mandatory - i.e., you cannot see a target(s) from anywhere else. This means you HAVE to go to these locations.

4) walk thru again noting where each target can be seen from, walking from start location thru each mandatory location, beginning to end. By now you should be getting a good idea of where each shooting position will be.

5) Now walk thru noting which targets you will engage at each location. Now it is breaking the stage into PARTS or SEGMENTS based on locations. Building blocks you will merge together in later steps.

6) Now you are ready to consider the most efficient way to shoot this stage. You have identified which targets to engage from each location and it is becoming a pretty solid plan.

7) Pick your identification marks at each location. I.e., straddle this joint in the foot fault stick, or right foot at the edge of this port or wall edge, etc. Consider where you are coming from and going to at each of these positions and locations.

8) Start figuring out the movement now - HOW you will move between location 1 and 2, and then on to 3, as this will help you know what position to be in at each, for entrances and exit efficiency. Do not get hung up on perfect stances as you can shoot equally accurately and fast with either foot forward, period. Place your feet where and how that you can leave fastest.

9) Now put it all together rehearsing in REAL TIME, not 2X or 4X superman movement and transition and split speeds. You should now be figuring out how to most EFFICIENTLY get from the first to the last Location in the stage, time wise.

10) figure out which targets you can shoot while leaving a position and location, which you can shoot on the move between locations, and which you can shoot entering a location. These are huge time saving possibilities.

11) Rehearse the whole stage now acting as if you are actually shooting the stage. Always have EXACT target shooting orders in each location and array. Do not leave that up in the air. Which will you shoot first, second third and last before moving on to next location? Can you see one target while entering the position and can safely engage it in the Alpha before coming to a stop in the new location, while "settling in" to it?

12) Where will I reload? This should be the LAST thing to consider, regardless of your division. I see more lower cap shooters making this their main priority and it is simply the wrong way to approach it. SOMETIMES you might shoot one target from a different location to avoid a standing reload, or go to one location or start differently if it is advantageous, but it is still an after thought, not a threshold criteria.

13) finally DECIDE on your plan and do not change it. Time to now PROGRAM and memorize it all thru actual walk thru and then mental rehearsals until you know it in detail and can "shoot" it with your eyes closed in great detail.

Anyway, that is all just off the top of my head. Probably some things I left out. But just think of it as a foot race, which it is often, from point A to Point B, with stops along the route, and you want to be shooting as much of the time as you can (i.e. you want to minimize the time when you are NOT shooting) because when you are not shooting, and the clock is running, points are being robbed away from you at the rate of your HF on the stage!

Thoughts?

[jkrispies]

Robco,

I agree with you (and the others) 100% that dryfire and range time are the best practice. However, there's plenty of time in the day/week/month when I'm not at the range and/or in a position to dryfire. My real question is if there is something that can be done during these off times which can be used to help for the sport. I am in no way whatsoever talking about dryfiring and/or shooting less, but rather finding something to suppliment my already existing training regimen.

For example, I have a game on my iPhone that was developed for baseball players to help them develop eye speed. If I find myself twiddling my thumbs in a waiting room, I'll sometimes pull that game out to play.

Regarding Lumosity--or any other suggested app--here's what I'm thinking: I like to read for 15-30 minutes before I go to bed at night as a way of relaxing enough to fall asleep. If I have a good book to read, I'll choose to read that... but I've been short of good reading material lately. Is there an app out there that I could play during that 15-30 minutes before bed which may develop some not-so-obvious skills which can transfer to USPSA? Stage planning is one example, eye speed is another.

Just looking for suggestions.

Thanks,

J

[Robco]

Robco,

I agree with you (and the others) 100% that dryfire and range time are the best practice. However, there's plenty of time in the day/week/month when I'm not at the range and/or in a position to dryfire. My real question is if there is something that can be done during these off times which can be used to help for the sport. I am in no way whatsoever talking about dryfiring and/or shooting less, but rather finding something to suppliment my already existing training regimen.

For example, I have a game on my iPhone that was developed for baseball players to help them develop eye speed. If I find myself twiddling my thumbs in a waiting room, I'll sometimes pull that game out to play.

Regarding Lumosity--or any other suggested app--here's what I'm thinking: I like to read for 15-30 minutes before I go to bed at night as a way of relaxing enough to fall asleep. If I have a good book to read, I'll choose to read that... but I've been short of good reading material lately. Is there an app out there that I could play during that 15-30 minutes before bed which may develop some not-so-obvious skills which can transfer to USPSA? Stage planning is one example, eye speed is another.

Just looking for suggestions.

Thanks,

J

J, I understand and figured you had this interest and agree such would be nice to have and try. I am not yet aware of any, but just in the last three days I have begun research into exactly this. Go check out my Topic and the reply posts here for some very interesting stuff on the subject of Vision Development. rowdyb brought this potential therapy up in my Topic thread and it has been fascinating. As you will see, been a lot of info provided in the thread, including my meeting yesterday morning with a friend at the Rio Salado club match, Kerry Pearson, who is not only a USPSA GM but also a practicing optometrist. You will not want to miss out on that entire thread and subject as we are getting into it as we write.

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=210804#entry2343809

Rob

[jkrispies]

Reading it now! I'm only a few posts in, but I can see (no pun intended!) that you're playing with the the same thought processes as me. I will contribute to the other thread if I have anything worth offering!

[mike cyrwus]

KIM's games are typically ten objects. They can be close together on a poncho or spread out on a lawn. You only have a set amount of time to observe the objects usually not more than 90 seconds total. But the observation time is broken up in to four or five blocks and under some type of physical stress. Push ups, jogging in place whatever you want. At the end, you will number a piece of paper 1-10, draw picture of the item, list size, shape, and what it appears to be. The game can last as little as five minutes to as long as an hour or two as you progress. The length of time is from when you last observed the objects to when you record them. When you have done the games for a while you can observe the objects and then do a target detection and then record the objects from the KIM's game. After doing this for about three to four times a week for three or more weeks you will start to notice everything around you when driving, taking a walk, or at work. May seem a little silly the first time you do the exercises but they work.

thank you very much for the reply.

[repins1911]

KIM's games are typically ten objects. They can be close together on a poncho or spread out on a lawn. You only have a set amount of time to observe the objects usually not more than 90 seconds total. But the observation time is broken up in to four or five blocks and under some type of physical stress. Push ups, jogging in place whatever you want. At the end, you will number a piece of paper 1-10, draw picture of the item, list size, shape, and what it appears to be. The game can last as little as five minutes to as long as an hour or two as you progress. The length of time is from when you last observed the objects to when you record them. When you have done the games for a while you can observe the objects and then do a target detection and then record the objects from the KIM's game. After doing this for about three to four times a week for three or more weeks you will start to notice everything around you when driving, taking a walk, or at work. May seem a little silly the first time you do the exercises but they work.

thank you very much for the reply.

I think there is some misconception as to the purpose of this exercise due to the name. It is not simply building memory, I could play memory matching games with my four year old for that. It is more for building awareness and attention to details.

Example for sniping is I can look at a photo for a few seconds and tell you where the most likely place for an enemy sniper to hide and where I would set up a shot. Neither are at the highest point.

Example for USPSA: when I walk a stage I see everything, not just target arrays and what order I want to engage. Things I see are places where the gravel is loose, if a shooting box sticks up more on the side or the back which may determine what angle I want to enter, how many strides I need to take before I can engage the next target array etc etc.

I don't think these exercises are the answer to everything and I am following Robco's other threads with great interest. My only real statement is that I know these techniques work for a shooter to increase situational awareness even while shooting, they help with overcoming tunnel vision so you don't forget the two small steel targets that blend in with berm. Hope this helps clarify.

Love this forum, full of lots of very knowledgable shooters and most have a good sense of humor.

[jkrispies]

Repins1911, are you aware of any apps, etc., that would allow a single person to do KIM's at home? Given the fact that you've honed this skill in sniper school, it sounds like true KIM's requires a buddy to do properly, if not an actual instructor.

[Robco]

KIM's games are typically ten objects. They can be close together on a poncho or spread out on a lawn. You only have a set amount of time to observe the objects usually not more than 90 seconds total. But the observation time is broken up in to four or five blocks and under some type of physical stress. Push ups, jogging in place whatever you want. At the end, you will number a piece of paper 1-10, draw picture of the item, list size, shape, and what it appears to be. The game can last as little as five minutes to as long as an hour or two as you progress. The length of time is from when you last observed the objects to when you record them. When you have done the games for a while you can observe the objects and then do a target detection and then record the objects from the KIM's game. After doing this for about three to four times a week for three or more weeks you will start to notice everything around you when driving, taking a walk, or at work. May seem a little silly the first time you do the exercises but they work.

thank you very much for the reply.

I think there is some misconception as to the purpose of this exercise due to the name. It is not simply building memory, I could play memory matching games with my four year old for that. It is more for building awareness and attention to details.

Example for sniping is I can look at a photo for a few seconds and tell you where the most likely place for an enemy sniper to hide and where I would set up a shot. Neither are at the highest point.

Example for USPSA: when I walk a stage I see everything, not just target arrays and what order I want to engage. Things I see are places where the gravel is loose, if a shooting box sticks up more on the side or the back which may determine what angle I want to enter, how many strides I need to take before I can engage the next target array etc etc.

I don't think these exercises are the answer to everything and I am following Robco's other threads with great interest. My only real statement is that I know these techniques work for a shooter to increase situational awareness even while shooting, they help with overcoming tunnel vision so you don't forget the two small steel targets that blend in with berm. Hope this helps clarify.

Love this forum, full of lots of very knowledgable shooters and most have a good sense of humor.

That is some cool stuff repins1911. I can see it being beneficial for sure.

[repins1911]

Repins1911, are you aware of any apps, etc., that would allow a single person to do KIM's at home? Given the fact that you've honed this skill in sniper school, it sounds like true KIM's requires a buddy to do properly, if not an actual instructor.

No app that I know of, but shouldn't be too hard to find a shooting buddy that is interested.

One thing that would be pretty easy to do: set up objects with your friend at the range, use your allotted exposure time, then go shoot your practice session and then try and record the objects.

Don't just focus on the KIMs, mix it up with target detection exercises. I really believe it is the combination of the two that tap into your "spidey-sense," lol. Granted I went to sniper school in 1995 but it sticks with you and they still use these exercises in current classes.

[Rob D]

I subscribed for awhile, then I dumped it. I did my research into it, and didn't like what I found. You get better at the games because you keep playing the games. You get better at anything you keep doing repetitively. The problem is, the games don't make you better at anything else. So the time you spend playing the game doesn't deliver on the promised it makes.

Seth M. Johnson

I wouldn't be so quick to discount the positive effects of games. I'm not arguing that luminosity is worthwhile or effective at "making you smarter," but there is a lot of evidence to suggest playing different games can train your brain to learn faster and perform various skills faster and with greater accuracy than those who don't game.

Here's a study that came out last fall: http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2014-10/uot-uot101714.php

Based on that premise, playing Call of Duty or Battlefield 4 could be just as effective, or even more so, than playing luminosity games. Playing games will definitely make you better at the game first and foremost, but several studies have shown measurable benefits to cognitive abilities that come from playing video games.

That said, I totally agree that time would be better spent practicing stage programming in dry fire.

Edited March 4, 2015 by Rob D

[repins1911]

I subscribed for awhile, then I dumped it. I did my research into it, and didn't like what I found. You get better at the games because you keep playing the games. You get better at anything you keep doing repetitively. The problem is, the games don't make you better at anything else. So the time you spend playing the game doesn't deliver on the promised it makes.

Seth M. Johnson

I wouldn't be so quick to discount the positive effects of games. I'm not arguing that luminosity is worthwhile or effective at "making you smarter," but there is a lot of evidence to suggest playing different games can train your brain to learn faster and perform various skills faster and with greater accuracy than those who don't game.

Here's a study that came out last fall: http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2014-10/uot-uot101714.php

Based on that premise, playing Call of Duty or Battlefield 4 could be just as effective, or even more so, than playing luminosity games. Playing games will definitely make you better at the game first and foremost, but several studies have shown measurable benefits to cognitive abilities that come from playing video games.

That said, I totally agree that time would be better spent practicing stage programming in dry fire.

Good God don't let my two boys see this!