ktm300 Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 So a revolver guy does a reload and points the gun over the top and past 180 by a ton and pretty much within a few feet of your head. You call stop and DQ the guy. The RM gives him the DQ using 10.5.2. I don't like to DQ the guy but I really don't like guns pointed in the direction of my head. A while later the RM comes back and says it's OK to do that because 10.5.3.6 says there is an exception when the revolver has the cylinder open and empty. At the time I take him for his word as there is a stage to run and he knows the rules better than I do. I think I am an idiot for not knowing about that exception. On the way home my friend and I look at the rule-book and we think that only applies to 10.5.3 when you drop the gun, he applied it to 10.5.2. Too late to argue but it kind of makes me a bit upset that he thinks someone can point a gun in the direction of my head and it's OK. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nghthwk1911 Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 First off 10.5.3.6, Nope. Second, I have seen wheel gunners move the gun ALOT during a reload, I have had some that are almost at the point of sweeping them selves getting the cylinder open and clearing the reloading device. I have see the straight up in the air drop the spent cases, none of these things violate a rule, but if as you said the muzzle broke the 90° from the median intercept of the backstop (aka 180°), then it is time to get some ice cream. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ktm300 Posted February 17, 2015 Author Share Posted February 17, 2015 If a shot had gone off at the highest point it would have gone out of the back of our bay and over the berm of the bay on the other side. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spanky Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 (edited) Does the RM have the authority to change his mind and overrule his own DQ? Edited February 17, 2015 by spanky Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
High Lord Gomer Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 Dayam! I would have had the RM run that guy from then on. ... we think that only applies to 10.5.3 when you drop the gun ... 10.5.3.6 does not apply to when you drop the gun but rather is one of the allowable conditions when intentionally and safely grounding a gun. Dropping a gun (during a COF) is always a DQ. 10.5.3 If at any time during the course of fire, or while loading, reloading or unloading, a competitor drops his handgun or causes it to fall, loaded or not. Note that a competitor who, for any reason during a course of fire, safely and intentionally places the handgun on the ground or other stable object will not be disqualified provided:10.5.3.1 The competitor maintains constant physical contact with the handgun, until it is placed firmly and securely on the ground or another stable object, and10.5.3.2 The competitor remains within 3 feet of the handgun at all times (except where the handgun is placed at a greater distance, under the supervision of a Range Official, in order to comply with a start position), and10.5.3.3 The provisions of Rule 10.5.2 do not occur, and10.5.3.4 The handgun is in the ready condition as specified in Section 8.1, or10.5.3.5 A self-loading pistol has an empty chamber, the magazine removed and the slide locked open, or10.5.3.6 A revolver has the cylinder open and empty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ktm300 Posted February 17, 2015 Author Share Posted February 17, 2015 10.5.3.6 does not apply to when you drop the gun but rather is one of the allowable conditions when intentionally and safely grounding a gun. Dropping a gun (during a COF) is always a DQ. . Yes, that was a brain fart. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teros135 Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 So a revolver guy does a reload and points the gun over the top and past 180 by a ton and pretty much within a few feet of your head. You call stop and DQ the guy. The RM gives him the DQ using 10.5.2. I don't like to DQ the guy but I really don't like guns pointed in the direction of my head. A while later the RM comes back and says it's OK to do that because 10.5.3.6 says there is an exception when the revolver has the cylinder open and empty. At the time I take him for his word as there is a stage to run and he knows the rules better than I do. I think I am an idiot for not knowing about that exception. Just wondering - is this a certified RM, or just the guy who's running things at a local match? I ask because this isn't a very tough call, and 10.5.3.6 has nothing to do with gun handling while reloading, in the current scenario. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ktm300 Posted February 17, 2015 Author Share Posted February 17, 2015 He is a certified RM. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teros135 Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 (edited) Fooey. Time for a refresher class, maybe? Edited February 17, 2015 by teros135 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 Brain fart? A brain fart is quoting an incorrect rule number or something petty. Thinking a revolver can break the 180 because a cylinder is open falls under a word I'm not allowed to say. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ktm300 Posted February 17, 2015 Author Share Posted February 17, 2015 The brain fart I referenced was what 10.5.3 was when I wrote the post. Not what the call was. I called the correct DQ and rule then got overruled by an RM using the wrong rule. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 The brain fart I referenced was what 10.5.3 was when I wrote the post. Not what the call was. I called the correct DQ and rule then got overruled by an RM using the wrong rule.I see that now. The RM should be reported to DNROI so he can get some badly needed retraining Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toothguy Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 First off 10.5.3.6, Nope. Second, I have seen wheel gunners move the gun ALOT during a reload, I have had some that are almost at the point of sweeping them selves getting the cylinder open and clearing the reloading device. I have see the straight up in the air drop the spent cases, none of these things violate a rule, but if as you said the muzzle broke the 90° from the median intercept of the backstop (aka 180°), then it is time to get some ice cream. +1, revolvers load and reload with the aid of gravity, so a revolver shooter will routinely get close to the boundaries. No excuse for unsafe gun handling. Mr. Miculek doesn't ever break the 180 but watch the slow-mo reload at about 2:30. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deerassassin22 Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 Well you have this rule also: 10.5.5 Allowing the muzzle of a handgun to point at any part of the competitor’s body during a course of fire (i.e. sweeping). Sweeping...................... Pointing the muzzle of a firearm at any part of any person’s body 10.5.2 If at any time during the course of fire, a competitor allows the muzzle of his handgun to point rearwards, that is further than 90 degrees from the median intercept of the backstop, or in the case of no backstop, allows the muzzle to point up range, whether the handgun is loaded or not (limited exceptions: 10.5.6). 8.4.1 When loading, reloading or unloading during a course of fire, the competitor’s fingers must be visibly outside the trigger guard and the handgun must be pointed safely down range or in another safe direction authorized by a Range Officer (see Section 10.5). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
afoulk Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 Yep. If revo guy can't keep the muzzle in the 180 when he's reloading, he goes home. If revo guy muzzles his hand going for the ejector rod, he goes home. If revo guy muzzles any part of his lower body feeding a moonclip into the cylinder, he goes home. As the rules are written, the cylinder being open is irrelevant. We regularly get close, but all the same rules that apply to autos also apply to revolvers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ktm300 Posted February 17, 2015 Author Share Posted February 17, 2015 Yes, and that is what I have always called. I am going to touch base with the range master that made the call. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JAFO Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 If a shot had gone off at the highest point it would have gone out of the back of our bay and over the berm of the bay on the other side. I don't believe there is a rule prohibiting the muzzle from rising above the berm during a reload. Rule 10.4.1 issues a DQ for a shot over the berm, but not for raising the muzzle over the berm while reloading. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deerassassin22 Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 But if the muzzle of the weapon is pointed at ANY Competitor this is a safety problem regardless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JAFO Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 Absolutely. Hopefully there aren't any competitors inside 90 degrees from the median intercept. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deerassassin22 Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 Well since the muzzle was pointed behind the shooters back were competitors often stand that would be sweeping LOL regardles of the 90degree Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ktm300 Posted February 17, 2015 Author Share Posted February 17, 2015 (edited) If a shot had gone off at the highest point it would have gone out of the back of our bay and over the berm of the bay on the other side. I don't believe there is a rule prohibiting the muzzle from rising above the berm during a reload. Rule 10.4.1 issues a DQ for a shot over the berm, but not for raising the muzzle over the berm while reloading. Not our berm, the one behind us. In other words, it was pointed far enough past the 180 to have the bullet leave out of our bay on the up range side and then go over the bay behind us and go over their berm. Edited February 17, 2015 by ktm300 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JAFO Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 (edited) I misread the post about the berm. When he said "it would have gone out of the back of our bay and over the berm of the bay on the other side," he was referring to the uprange direction. I normally refer to the "back of the bay" as the farthest downrange location. ETA: You cleared it up as I was typing. Edited February 17, 2015 by JAFO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ktm300 Posted February 17, 2015 Author Share Posted February 17, 2015 I misread the post about the berm. When he said "it would have gone out of the back of our bay and over the berm of the bay on the other side," he was referring to the uprange direction. I normally refer to the "back of the bay" as the farthest downrange location. ETA: You cleared it up as I was typing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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