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Trigger Control


bird

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1.  Locate the target

ok, no problem there it is

2.  Place your sights on the target.

sight alignment, sight pix, 1-5 types of sight/target focus/stance, grip, index, ok still no problem,rock solid,

confidence city here..

3.  Fire the pistol with out moving the sights off the target.

OK now this is where it gets hard (for me).

Triger control and all that.

Pressing, squeezing, touching, moving, pulling, sweetly, letting the subconsciousness et al.

Poor trigger control will make the best shooter shoot bad.

I have seen it 1st hand from me (3 months shooting competition to guys and gals that have been shooting for YEARS--buzzer freeze).

Sorry for the long intro/diatribe but what are everyones' thoughts on "trigger control".

The trigger finger MUST move independent of the grip and that I find that if my index finger is at a 90 degree angle and I use the pad of my finger I get best results...etc, etc.

What are the thoughts and views of the BE Cult on this subject?

Thanks much......

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It's probably not an exact answer but here goes: Shoot one (1, eine, uno) gun only!  If you must shoot more than one gun, shoot guns made by the same manufacturer with identical triggers done by the same smith.  Do this for one year.  You'll be amazed by how well you pull, stroke, caress, fondle, yank, etc. that trigger.  That was the advice given me by a tactical shooter (read SWAT team leader.)  I couldn't follow it completely; you know somedays you just gotta shoot a wheel gun or a .22, but I've done probably ninety percent of my shooting in the last year with identical triggered Glocks.  It's made a big difference in my allaround shooting ability.

If you try this and want to shoot something different once in a while, I think that's o.k. if you separate it from your usual practice routine.  I go shooting with friends of mine a couple of times a year who are casual shooters.  On those days, I leave the Glocks home and play with something else.  It's fun, and it doesn't disrupt my Practice routine.....

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DRY FIRE, DRY FIRE, DRY FIRE!

Sorry, for the yelling. If you dry fire enough, you won't even think about your trigger. If you have to think about trigger control, there is no way you can shoot fast or accurately. The "wanks" and the "yanks" are caused by not dry fireing.  

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bird,

Dry fire with the goal of making sure the sights don't move when the hammer/striker falls, as I recall Brian talks about this is his book, and he talks alot about the importance of shooting lotsa groups.  

I would also try the coin on the slide drill: put a coin on the top of your slide and dry fire, make sure the coin doesn't fall off the slide.  I was going to start doing this for my weak hand shooting, because my weak hand doesn't know the meaning of the words trigger control.

Hope this helps.

Bill

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I feel I've got a standard trigger pull, a certain way of breaking the shot, I use for almost all shots. Like Singlestack said, I'm not thinking about it. It's only when the shots become partials at twenty yards or full targets beyond thirty yards that I'm aware of a different kind of trigger pull. I don't know, maybe it's not different, maybe the only difference is that I'm more aware of the trigger for these shots compared to the others. But I'm still not thinking about it.

When I'm taking the long, difficult shots, it's like the front sight and trigger are connected, are part of a cooperative system. The trigger slack is taken up (or it resets from the disconnector) and held against the sear while I notice the sight black pattern on the front sight and I see it level with the rear and I see equal daylight around it. Once I see all that, I break the shot, while still seeing that. I'm more aware of following through and the trigger resetting on these tough shots.

Have you ever played air combat games (or better yet, flown the real thing!) with a Sidewinder missile? You arm it and its infrared seeker emits an audible warbling tone that changes as its targeted heat source becomes more or less identifiable. When it goes from a warble to a steady growl, it has locked on to the heat source and you launch it. That's the feeling I have when I'm taking the long, hard shots. That's what I mean by a cooperative system between sight and trigger.

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Come Brian, that is pretty weak....hehe

IMO trigger control is the most important part of releasing your bullet on the target.

There is alot of talk about guns, springs, loads etc etc, but very little on the "art of trigger control."

Shotgun, rifle, pistol et al...it all boils down to mastering that gol' darn trigger////

Please Advise..

If I shoot a .357 revolver or a 1911 space gun it all revolves around trigger control.....

I have a whole notebook full of thoughts concerning addressing the trigger...

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Quote: from bird on 8:13 pm on Oct. 23, 2001

Pressing, squeezing, touching, moving, pulling, sweetly, letting the subconsciousness et al.

bird, that reminds me of a song Journey did back in the days of the hair bands.  

   One thing I learned from Brian's book the second or third time around was to let my vision fire the shot.  On Page 92 (in my BE auto graphed copy) Brian was writing about calling the shot.  He used the analogy of putting your visual attention and trigger pressure on a bar graph.  Both should peak at the same time.  This will keep your gun aligned on target while you break the shot.

     It's possible that you are so focused on trigger control that you aren't letting your vision fire the shot.  From one point of view, does it really matter how we control the trigger, as long as the bullets hit where we want them to?  This techinque works really well for me, but I am doing it very quickly.   I don't recommend "hovering around" trying to get the perfect sight alignment while loving, squeezin',  touchin' the tri-iggaaaa'  ...na na....  na nana....

      I digress.....

Anyway, Brian was writing about calling your shots, but it may be useful here.  

              -Sam


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bird and bd,

You're right on about excess concern over "trigger control." It has to be there (trigger control), but if we are stressing or concentrating too hard on something, it often becomes difficult to detach enough to let it happen.

Another way of "looking at" trigger control, and one that works for me as well as some I've instructed, is to imagine your hands are remaining/feeling COMPLETELY STILL during the time you are aiming and releasing the shot. I direct my attention into my hands and "will them" to be completely still, nothing moves except the trigger finger. If I look right at the sites, while preserving this feeling of stillness, the results are usually good. Often I don't even remember my finger moving to fire the shot, or even being aware that a shot was going to fire. Training like this can be helpful at anytime, but especially when the fundamentals of releasing the shot are not firmly ingrained. (We've been here before), but it's kind of the "not-doing" shooting (pulling the trigger). It's just a feeling of being calm in your hands while looking right at the sights. After awhile, the gun begins to fire itself simply as a result of visual confirmation of what needs to happen. This is a cool/good deal.

be

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Quote: from benos on 7:28 pm on Oct. 29, 2001

imagine your hands are remaining/feeling COMPLETELY STILL during the time you are aiming and releasing the shot. I direct my attention into my hands and "will them" to be completely still, nothing moves except the trigger finger. If I look right at the sites, while preserving this feeling of stillness, the results are usually good. Often I don't even remember my finger moving to fire the shot, or even being aware that a shot was going to fire. be

Earlier this year at an IDPA match I had to shoot a stage that was two open paper targets at less than seven yards while moving to cover behind a barricade; then a hostage rescue shot around the side of the barricade.  Problem was that the target was at 15 yards, only the head was available with a no-shoot head directly adjacent, a limitation of one round fired at the hostage taker, a sixty second penalty for hitting the hostage and a thirty second penalty for failing to neutralize the hostage taker.  I remember taking the sight picture and prepping the trigger while really concentrating on maintaining sight alignment when I was shocked to feel the gun fire! Apparently I was so focused on the sights that I never realized that I was stroking the trigger.  And I was shocked to discover that I had succeeded..... this was before I learned to call my shots! I've thought about that shot often; it's cool to realize that it's what should happen.

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Nik,

Cool. After some time behind the gun - really looking at the site alignment fires the gun without effort. This is because all the information you need to know about where the shot is going to go is obtained by looking right at the sites. When you have/see all the NECESSARY info, the mind responds intelligently to the demands of the moment.

be

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Duh.

Just yesterday I started a thread on trigger control over at the beginner's miscellany forum.

Feel free to refer to it there.

I get the feeling all of you guys are using 2# triggers.

When I look really close at my pull, it seems I'm just compensating to the right as my squeeze sends the muzzle left.

At slow speeds this isn't a problem.

When you guys just hit the trigger a few times, dry, does the muzzle not move?

Mine's a 3 1/2# pull (carry) which I feel is pretty light, but even that seems to require more leveraging against my hand than I'd like.

Any tips, other than the usual?

- or do I just need to keep hammering away?

Much appreciated!

BE - the book is great.

I don't like trying to fit my supprt hand onto the backstrap, but the thumbs-thing was an instant improvement.

[edited for spelling]

(Edited by youngun at 9:22 pm on Oct. 30, 2001)

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youngun, nah, some have 1 or 1.5 pound triggers. I have one that started at 2 and gets better and better every day.

No, the muzzle doesn't move. I should say it doesn't move any more or any differently, because it's always moving. It just doesn't move out of the A zone or off the plate when the hammer drops.

Dry firing is where you'll learn good trigger control. It's free and easy, do some more.

Leveraging against your hand doesn't sound cool. That sounds like it can't help but move the gun around. The finger should be completely isolated. I'd say even the front half of the finger should be isolated from the rest of the finger and the rest of the hand.

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To me trigger control is a visual process. Watch the sights, they will tell you how your trigger press is affecting the alignment of the gun. I did a lot of experimenting with trigger control at the beginning of this season. What I learned is it doesn't matter 'how' you pull the trigger. Whether a gentle squeeze or a fast 'tap', as long as it does not disturb the alignment of the gun to target. Isolate the trigger finger from the hand, try it without the gun. Just get used to moving that finger independantly of the hand. You can do it anytime...watching TV, in the office or while scanning posts on BE.com :)

Pat

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"Leveraging against your hand doesn't sound cool. That sounds like it can't help but move the gun around. The finger should be completely isolated. I'd say even the front half of the finger should be isolated from the rest of the finger and the rest of the hand. "

Isolate the trigger finger.

Sounds great.

But every force has an equal and opposite, so if not the hand, then what am I bracing my finger against to execute the pull?

If I could hold the gun on a machine, then I could just lean my body back, but otherwise, I don't see the mechanics.

Do me a favor:

Pull the trigger REALLY SLOWLY on your favorite 3+ # gun and let me know where your force is coming from.

The first joint's connected to the...

 second joint;

The second joint's connected to the...

 third joint - you get the idea.

I'm stumped.

I have a suspicion that in the realm of sub 2 # triggers, there is so little "bracing" going on that it's virtually imperceptible.

-but I have no way of knowing.

Thanks again!

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It is actually possible to move only the trigger finger without moving the rest of the hand, I am still learning but it can be done.

Take a rubber ball and grasp it with your thumb and bottom 3 fingers of your shooting hand.

Keep your index finger off the ball and carefully move it back and forth without milking the rest of your hand.

This little exercise works great to build up the small muscles in your hand that you don't use for anything else but shooting.

I am pulling an HK trigger (13#'s-5#'s) and there may be a bit of small movement in your hand (E=MC2 and all that) but it is not enough to disturb sight alignment.

Also balancing a dime flat on the front sight while dry firing helps to teach trigger control.

Thanks to everyone and their replies, every once in awhile someone will type something that get's through this thick German head of mine...hehe

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The tip of the finger can be moved independent of the rest of the hand. (Do you leverage against your mouse to double-click?)

I've seen both Michael Voigt and Rob Leatham do a remedial trigger control exercise/demonstration for their students.... (You may have seen Robbie do it with Jim Scoutten on American Shooter.) The student with the poor trigger control aims the gun and the teacher pulls the trigger. They aren't gripping the gun, they are just sticking their finger out and pulling, not leveraging against anything.

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I really appreciate the support here, guys, and if you say you're doing it, then I can do it.

I'll just keep practicing.

"The tip of the finger can be moved independent of the rest of the hand. (Do you leverage against your mouse to double-click?) "

Well, try it REALLY SLOWLY, and REALLY RELAXEDLY.

I did just now, and what I see is that I'm actually lifting a bit of the weight of my hand up onto the button.

The finger moving idependantly? No.

But I've been doing a lot of dry-fire today, trying to polish the stone as it were, and what it seems like is this:

My grip must be sufficiently/proportionately steady and uniform across the backstrap (especially at the web) to allow a "pressure platform" for my index finger to press into without significant increase.

Put another way, the squeeze effects a shortening of the distance between trigger finger pad and web of hand.

If the grip is to remain unchanged the difference in that distance must be only in the front, and it must move perfectly straight back.

Of course there must be no actual "space" between the web and backstrap/grip safety, but more precisely, there mustn't be even a significant change in pressure against these two (web & backstrap.)

But this isn't because the finger moves "independantly" in a strict sense, but because the "backup" it requires isn't significantly beyond what is already provided by the grip itself.

Long winded?

Apologies.

"I've seen both Michael Voigt and Rob Leatham do a remedial trigger control exercise/demonstration for their students.... (You may have seen Robbie do it with Jim Scoutten on American Shooter.) The student with the poor trigger control aims the gun and the teacher pulls the trigger. They aren't gripping the gun, they are just sticking their finger out and pulling, not leveraging against anything."

Well, I have seen it, and I've been in class to do it/have it done.

And this is what I was refering to when I said if I could put the gun in a machine, I could just lean back.

Beleive it or not, Rob Leatham, et al, MUST counter that one- to three- pound pressure somewhere.

If they did not, the would tip over forward.

- I know it sounds absurd, but that's because most adult humans are so adept at making these tiny microadjustments with gravity, and within their own bodies; but it happens all the time.

Pick up a glass in as relaxed a way as possible, and you'll see the counterbalancing going on, negotiating the load on your limb.

Maybe this is way to conceptual for what should simply be a felt wisening, but I tried that first, and got stuck, so I started thinking.

I'm so green, some of you are certainly laughing.

But please, now that I've spit this out,

...any thoughts/comments?

:-)

Taylor

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youngun,

Try this. Hold your unloaded gun in position, take out the take-up in the trigger, now imagine a spot exactly opposite of where your trigger finger is, on the web of your shooting hand (between the thumb and index finger). Now without thinking about pulling the trigger, just "increase the pressure" between those two points. When you do it "right," it's weird, but cool.

be

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"Now without thinking about pulling the trigger, just "increase the pressure" between those two points."

That is very cool indeed.

Really helps.

Feels much less agressive on the trigger.

It's amking more of a circle instead of a "pull," if that makes sense.

I'm sitting here doing it as I'm writing this, and I am tripping over how much this is changing my technique.

!!!

Thank you Brian!

I'm going to go play!

Was this in the book? did I miss it?

!!!

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I still think that the bottom 3 fingers and the thumb cannot move when the trigger finger is moving.(my basics).

To me it is more like trying to touch the center of my palm with my index finger while all the rest are "frozen" in time.

I also believe that after you have shot enough rounds that the visual aspect will subconsciously tell your trigger finger what to do...

I will be at that point someday but for now it is just alot of overanalyzing for me.

(I try not to think while I really shoot though...I really do).

youngun let us know how your live fire goes after this.

Sig

na

ture

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Hey, Bird, I sure will.

It won't be till next Thurs.

Until then, lots of practice.

Just today I've come along way out of my plateu.

I've been experimenting with where along this imaginary line I actually make the shortening happen.

I've been doing it at the finger side, of course.

And although it's still mechanically the finger that is coming back, I can make it "feel" more like it is coming from anywhere along that line, all the way to the web.

Very interesting element.

I look forward to seeing what happens.

For reference, I can shoot a slow-fire group of 7 rnds in 2" @ 10yds.

I'd love to move that back 3 yds.

(And then another 5!)

As for this independant movement thing:

I can move my finger no problem.

I just can't apply any force to speak of without relying on a "grip" of some sort.

I think what Brin's tip is allowing me to do is to compensate on the right-brain side rather than trying to think through it.

The conceptual side of thought never has been much use in martial technique (real-time, that is, notwithstanding the inportance of study!)

taylor

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For the record:

No amazing improvement in group size, but much more consistent.

Rapid fire has gotten worse on the first shot, since I've loosened up my grip, but I think that's just growing pains.

I'm really burning up ammo.

Damn, .45 is expen$ive!!

I'll let you know in a couple of months if there's major improvement.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Nik: sorry but I tend to disagree with the 'shoot only one gun' theory. I believe on the contrary that you should shoot as many types of triggers as possible, because the fundamentals are the same. Whether a 12# double action trigger or a 1# 1911 trigger, the process (can it really be called a process?) of pressing the trigger while paying attention to the sights is the same. Try the dime drill on both, 1911 and revolver, but don't focus on the actual trigger pull. Only see the dime, direct all your attention toward it, just as you would the front sight while holding on a target. In the end the weight and type of trigger become irrelevent. Only the focus on keeping the sight aligned matters...and the gun fires.

Pat

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I'm with Pat here. It also demonstrates that -counter to what bird said- trigger press and sight picture/focus are among the few things (and probably the two by far most important ones!) that the subconscious can't do for you. To shoot well, the conscious mind has to perform these two things for every shot!

--Detlef

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