michael1778 Posted February 10, 2015 Share Posted February 10, 2015 Hello Everyone, Apologies in advance if this is a super rookie question, but here goes. In 2 or 3 years, I would like to improve my 3-gun skills to the point that I could try to register for the MGM Ironman match. That's my stretch goal for 3-gun as well as individual physical fitness. I work well with goals like that. OK, so I shoot Open (or Unlimited in some rule books) and that won't change. My question is only about what would be the better style of 4th gun for long-range bonus targets. Except for training events prior to Ironman, I won't use this rifle for any other reason. It would be all about best performance at that match, perhaps in years to follow if I can handle it. I've been searching high and low online, including here at Enos, but I haven't found a crystal clear recommendation. The best I can see is some preference for semi-autos since the bonus targets are shot on the clock. However, that isn't an overwhelming recommendation all around, so I needed to ask. The two part question is: Bolt or Gas gun for MGM use only? I expect only to use this rifle for training for Ironman and then match use there. If Gas gun, what platform would you recommend? AR15 in a "factory" caliber. AR15 in a funky wildcat? Go to a new 308 AR size frame? Background to help your responses: I happen to have at least one AR15 receiver set available for conversion to a dedicated long range gun. I don't reload currently, but I could start for whatever caliber I select in an AR15 platform. Wildcats could be possible. If a Bolt gun or large frame (308-size) AR are recommended, I would prefer to stick with "factory" ammo, which in my definition includes boutique makers like Copper Creek Caliber or rifle maker recommendations in your recommended platform are also welcome. I'm asking early like this because I need to decide what gear I own to sell to raise some needed money for basic living expenses....right now. But, I would like to avoid taking a loss on items today and then turn around late this year and have to buy similar items again. I'm very concerned about messing this up. Alright, I think that covers it. Thank you very much for your guidance. I appreciate all the great insights I get here. I hope this was the best BE forum for this question. -- Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
openclassterror Posted February 10, 2015 Share Posted February 10, 2015 I bought a DPMS LR308 last year for the Ironman. The 24" ss heavy barrel version. Added a PRS stock, JP trigger, a good scope, and a bipod. I added a bad-ass comp, but was not terribly necessary as heavy as the gun is. With 168gr HPBT bullets it groups about 1/2 MOA at 300yds. Watch gunbroker and such, I got mine brand new for about a grand, and the market hadn't stalled yet. You should be able to do better, as the AR market fell off a cliff. You could re-barrel to 6.5 creedmoor or one of the other semi-wildcats, but a rifle like this will do everything you need for Ironman, at a very reasonable cost. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bishop414 Posted February 10, 2015 Share Posted February 10, 2015 I would recommend reaching out to Russell, founder of trooper class. He has participated at Ironman multiple times and has tried many weapons and platforms. I know I would seek him out for this type of question. http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showuser=4116 Good luck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Religious Shooter Posted February 10, 2015 Share Posted February 10, 2015 I've gone one year using my .243 bolt rifle, then 24" .223 AR, then 6.5 Grendel AR, last time I went with a LR308 style in .260 Remington. Unfortunately I got DQ'd on the last one and didn't get to use the .260. Bolt rifle you really need to have a magazine. One year they didn't allow you to have any rounds on your LR rifle so you had to reload on the clock. Loading a conventional internal magazine on the clock is a loser. In addition it's better to have capacity. My bolt rifle uses AICS mags that only have 10 rounds. If you really want those targets you may have to reload. With a semi-auto you can have 15/20/30/100 round mags. No or less reloads necessary. You have to practice more with a bolt rifle. One year my friend took his bolt rifle with little practice... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YBzAsOeSuWU Looking at it now his follow up shots took a lot more time than with a semi-auto (you have to work the action and you usually will break sight picture) and he had to reload. Reloading while prone and in an awkward position takes a lot longer. I could have easily stuck with the 6.5 Grendel but I eventually went with the .260 because I had the $ to spend. If I did it now I would still build an LR308 lower and get a DPMS upper in 6.5 Creedmoor and buy factory Hornady ammo. Unfortunately DPMS has suspended building .260 and Creedmoor uppers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ziebart Posted February 10, 2015 Share Posted February 10, 2015 They are bonus targets, don't bring a fourth gun. I have only shot the match twice, so things may change but last year it was only worth it to shoot them if you were really on it. I watched many people take longer to get the bonus, than what it was worth. Now the year before, it was worth it as they were worth a lot of bonus time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
openclassterror Posted February 10, 2015 Share Posted February 10, 2015 I got my money's worth on one of the long range stages (all three targets in four shots, I knew the one was off when the trigger broke. Follow-up shot was on the way before the miss kicked up dirt). On the other, I had a hell of a time finding my sight picture, as the targets were WAY uphill, and my scope was too far back for shooting prone at such an angle. I burned more time than I got back. In retrospect, when I could tell that it wasn't "right" I shoulda just bailed on the remaining bonuses. Major benefit to semi-auto is that you can walk the shots in without losing sight picture. With a 22x Nightforce, I could easily see the misses and correct for wind with little time lost. With a bolt gun, you have to keep the gun on target until you see the strike, THEN cycle, correct, then shoot. Enough time for the wind to change. With semi-auto, corrections are almost instantaneous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michael1778 Posted February 10, 2015 Author Share Posted February 10, 2015 So far, I see some discussion on the cost vs benefit for having a dedicated long rifle for the match. Then, if one is chosen, it seems that the gas gun is the unanimous recommendation (caliber TBD). These have been very helpful responses, so far. I hope a few more come along. Thank you all very much! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ziebart Posted February 10, 2015 Share Posted February 10, 2015 There is also the aspect that it is the Ironman, and you came there to shoot, so you should go for it. I watched people in my squad from 2 years ago tag a couple of the bonus targets with their regular AR and 77smks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
openclassterror Posted February 10, 2015 Share Posted February 10, 2015 So far, I see some discussion on the cost vs benefit for having a dedicated long rifle for the match. Then, if one is chosen, it seems that the gas gun is the unanimous recommendation (caliber TBD). These have been very helpful responses, so far. I hope a few more come along. Thank you all very much! Cost vs Benefit? What are you THINKING????????? I didn't buy the rifle because it was a cost-effective way of shooting the Ironman. Ironman just gave me an EXCUSE to buy a rifle I had been Jonesing for. If cost-effectiveness was important, you could come as a spectator and save a thousand bucks in ammo! I tried to justify a .22 once by thinking about how much money it would save. I still spent the same amount on ammo, I just shot more (until I couldn't find .22 ammo. Now I am back to practicing with the 9mm, but THAT is a different story for a different day ) Truth is, if you just decide how YOU really want to shoot it, then save your pennies until you can, it will be amazing no matter what way you do it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R-Bros_JLR Posted February 10, 2015 Share Posted February 10, 2015 AR-10 in 6.5 Creed would be the way to go for a long range bonus gun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eric4069 Posted February 10, 2015 Share Posted February 10, 2015 So far, I see some discussion on the cost vs benefit for having a dedicated long rifle for the match. Then, if one is chosen, it seems that the gas gun is the unanimous recommendation (caliber TBD). These have been very helpful responses, so far. I hope a few more come along. Thank you all very much! Cost vs Benefit? What are you THINKING????????? I didn't buy the rifle because it was a cost-effective way of shooting the Ironman. Ironman just gave me an EXCUSE to buy a rifle I had been Jonesing for. If cost-effectiveness was important, you could come as a spectator and save a thousand bucks in ammo! I tried to justify a .22 once by thinking about how much money it would save. I still spent the same amount on ammo, I just shot more (until I couldn't find .22 ammo. Now I am back to practicing with the 9mm, but THAT is a different story for a different day ) Truth is, if you just decide how YOU really want to shoot it, then save your pennies until you can, it will be amazing no matter what way you do it! Great post for all of our shooting sports! Eric Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShooterSteve Posted February 11, 2015 Share Posted February 11, 2015 I bought a DPMS in 6.5 Creed, and it was a huge disappointment. Ditched it in favor of a bolt gun. Since you allready have a small ar lower, why don't you look at a Grendel, but a bad ass scope on it and come shoot with me? You are trying to get to iron man, and we have good matches here. What, do I have body odor, or you don't like my sarcasm, what? What??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michael1778 Posted February 11, 2015 Author Share Posted February 11, 2015 (edited) I bought a DPMS in 6.5 Creed, and it was a huge disappointment. Ditched it in favor of a bolt gun. Since you allready have a small ar lower, why don't you look at a Grendel, but a bad ass scope on it and come shoot with me? You are trying to get to iron man, and we have good matches here. What, do I have body odor, or you don't like my sarcasm, what? What??? Oh you aren't getting away from shooting matches with me, Steve. I just need to bring the right gear. Ironman is a multi-year "Stretch" goal for me. Should help me focus everything I do to a concrete long-term goal. Before that? A bunch of matches and training here in NC and neighboring states. Edited February 11, 2015 by michael1778 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShooterSteve Posted February 11, 2015 Share Posted February 11, 2015 Oh I do plan on rebuilding the AR though. Will be going with JP parts. Have to let the "financial advisor" and credit card cool off for a while if ya know what I mean! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michael1778 Posted February 13, 2015 Author Share Posted February 13, 2015 In conclusion, if you are of the "you go so shoot it all" mindset then get a gas gun. More votes for a larger framed semi in something like 6.5mm Creedmoor with a minority toward a 6.5 Grendel on the AR15 platform. I was considering a 6mm variant of the Grendel. OK, thank you everyone for the feedback. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShooterSteve Posted February 14, 2015 Share Posted February 14, 2015 You're going to have to start reloading if you go with a 6 variant of the Grendel. My next small ar will be a 6mmar, but not the turbo version. I'm willing to work brass, but leave off the fire forming on brass that will be lost at matches. I MAY know someone who has a 6.5 creed upper for cheep. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stlhead Posted February 14, 2015 Share Posted February 14, 2015 If given a choice between shooting the ironman this year, or waiting until next year so I could afford an extra gun I would shoot it now every time. Sign up for the match and shoot it with the guns you have now, if you are in open someone on your squad will certainly lend you a long range gun if you want to take a poke with it. you have enough logistics issues to get 3 guns and ammo to the match. June is coming fast, get signed up! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michael1778 Posted February 14, 2015 Author Share Posted February 14, 2015 If given a choice between shooting the ironman this year, or waiting until next year so I could afford an extra gun I would shoot it now every time. Sign up for the match and shoot it with the guns you have now, if you are in open someone on your squad will certainly lend you a long range gun if you want to take a poke with it. you have enough logistics issues to get 3 guns and ammo to the match. June is coming fast, get signed up! Soonest possible would be next year. Lots of real-world, unavoidable reasons for that. None of the reasons are guns or gear related. Those are the easy problems! I expect to have those cleared up by next year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DocMedic Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 From my past experince at this match, there is no penality to missing and you're rewarded more if you can hit the targets faster. A accurate Semiauto is all you're going to need. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michael1778 Posted February 18, 2015 Author Share Posted February 18, 2015 From my past experince at this match, there is no penality to missing and you're rewarded more if you can hit the targets faster. A accurate Semiauto is all you're going to need. Thank you. I think I'm down to choosing a semi-auto platform and caliber now. I'm awful at wind estimation and expect to be challenged by that to some degree even after lots of practice in the next couple of years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShooterSteve Posted February 18, 2015 Share Posted February 18, 2015 I've got a big fan you could use to practice......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ziebart Posted February 19, 2015 Share Posted February 19, 2015 Look into using a 22 for wind practice. It will get moved around more. A 22 at 200 yards is fun with the time delay before it hits the steel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShooterSteve Posted February 19, 2015 Share Posted February 19, 2015 Hey Michael, will you be shooting any 22 matches at dprc? Zipbart is right, and I hadn't even thought about the 22 matches. I'll miss the first one as I'll be at Peacemaker in Va, but I'm going to try to go to as many as I can. I have my wife talked into shooting them so maybe I can get a new 22! I mean you know, get HER a new 22 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michael1778 Posted February 20, 2015 Author Share Posted February 20, 2015 (edited) Look into using a 22 for wind practice. It will get moved around more. A 22 at 200 yards is fun with the time delay before it hits the steel. Hadn't thought of that. I'm not normally one to "embrace the suck" But, maybe that's the way to tackle the shooter inexperience problem. Thank you. Hey Michael, will you be shooting any 22 matches at dprc? Zipbart is right, and I hadn't even thought about the 22 matches. I'll miss the first one as I'll be at Peacemaker in Va, but I'm going to try to go to as many as I can. I have my wife talked into shooting them so maybe I can get a new 22! I mean you know, get HER a new 22 I don't have a .22. I suppose I could look into a 22 upper for my current competition lower. Carbon Arms has one, as I recall. Not sure about wanting to do matches with that. More to consider in the future. Job interview next week, so wish me luck, please. Edited February 20, 2015 by michael1778 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ziebart Posted February 20, 2015 Share Posted February 20, 2015 If all you will use it for is learning wind a cheaper Savage bolt action topped with a scope that you will move to the LR gun once it is built is the way to go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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