Is ICORE dead in the Mid-Atlantic?

[Fordfan485]

I am interested in going to an ICORE match but looks like the only club in VA listed on the ICORE website no longer shoots ICORE, same with the ones listed for WV and NC. There are no clubs listed in MD or DE too. Closest club is 6+ hours away in PA. Are there other clubs not listed on the ICORE website?

[UFO]

IMO, I think ICORE started to die when 8 shot revolvers became legal in USPSA. I attended an ICORE match last weekend that had only 11 people show up to shoot. A year ago that same club consistently had 40 +.

[PJONES5]

Move to Fl. ICORE is Growing.

Pat

[afoulk]

Yep. That's about the size of it. I'm from NOVA and I attended the last matches in Charlottesville two years ago and at Peacemaker in WV last summer. Both were shuttered due to lack of interest. The last matches at Peacemaker we shot had a total of 3 shooters, including the match director. Only the MD and I showed up for the last scheduled match. That small of match was closing down 5 bays at Peacemaker that the members or a more popular match could be using. We tried, but couldn't keep things going.

Best thing to do is find your local USPSA match and run an 8 shot there to practice. Hit the regional at Ontelaunee in May of this year.

There is a club up in Chambersburg, PA doing a couple of unofficial one off matches this winter. I went up there last weekend. Here's a link:

http://chambersburgpistolandrifleclub.com/matches

[crotchThrower]

I live in NY, Suffolk county LI to be more specific. ICORE clubs are nowhere to be found. In my local club for two years, I ran an ICORE like competition. We tried to follow all the rules with some minor changes to accommodate folks who otherwise would not had participated. The first year we had 20 shooters. The next year we had 24. This year we are no longer having the match.

Sadly this is my two cents and difficulties with ICORE. I think it has little to do with anything outside of it. The uspsa change did little in my opinion to attract new shooters and in may have pissed a lot of people off. It turned the staple of uspsa revolver division, the sw 625 into a paper weight overnight.

First is the entry cost. Any decent revolver you buy today will cost you. Then you have to buy a holster, speedloaders/mooclips, holders for each respectively. There is no real entry level for ICORE.

Second is what is required to do well; the skill level. Shooting accurately with a revolver, specially for a new shooter can be frustrating. Specially when you have stages with steel in them. Some of my shooters hated those stages as they literally ran out of ammo and did not finish.,

Third to keep a sport growing you must have an easy entry point. ICORE introduced the "classic division", but still, you need the proper gear to have a good time. Getting speed loaders out of nail pouches and pockets gets old quickly.

I love ICORE, but the reality of it is that it is expensive, difficult and hard to get into for most folks. My two cents

Edited February 1, 2015 by crotchThrower

[crotchThrower]

oh same reasons in my opinion why folks in our neck of the woods are not getting into cowboy action shooting,,, the one main difference is that the skill level required and learning curve is not that steep. the cost can be prohibitive If you go full retard in all the garments and doohickeys that go along with it.

[crotchThrower]

... but I digressed ... continue with this fine topic...

[MrDanCheck]

I am interested in going to an ICORE match but looks like the only club in VA listed on the ICORE website no longer shoots ICORE, same with the ones listed for WV and NC. There are no clubs listed in MD or DE too. Closest club is 6+ hours away in PA. Are there other clubs not listed on the ICORE website?

No icore in VA There is a ton of USPSA shooting in Northern Virginia... I would love to have more revolver shooters out here..

[mwx40x40]

Same here , I was running an ICORE match in Augusta, GA from about 2000 to 2012. Even at our peak we only had about 8-10 competitors show up. But, I was happy with that and put a match together every other month. Then attendance started dropping off in 2011 and I went to quarterly matches. Finally in 2013 I set match up and had one person show up. That was the straw that broke the camel's back (MD). Now I put the Annual ICORE Postal match on once a year in the Fall as our only match. Last year only had two show for it.

Now when I am jonzing to shoot with fellow revolver shooters, I take a couple of hour drive to Summerville couple times a year as they were hosting ICORE matches there.

[BitchinCamaro]

... the cost can be prohibitive If you go full retard in all the garments and doohickeys that go along with it.

:roflol: :roflol:

Edited April 20, 2015 by BitchinCamaro

[RevoWood123]

Our club in southern IN has had lots of requests for ICORE. We used to have it regularly but the match director had other things come up that prohibited him from having the time to do them. Since then I and another guy at our club are going to be co-directing ICORE matches at our club. At last nights meeting alone I had 24 people give me their names and emails who were interested in shooting ICORE. Some were USPSA and IDPA folks that feel that revos in those two organizations aren't quite as welcomed as they once were.

[Forrest Halley]

Icore is dead in VA for now. There just aren't enough revolver shooters with any great skill and dedication here to mentor the less skilled guys. I'm guilty of the dedication failure. Maybe a could get it back again. I am going to pursue revolver shooting seriously again with my new 9mm widget. Maybe some folks will turn out for uspsa and from that we can get the icore back again.

[Carmoney]

I live in NY, Suffolk county LI to be more specific. ICORE clubs are nowhere to be found. In my local club for two years, I ran an ICORE like competition. We tried to follow all the rules with some minor changes to accommodate folks who otherwise would not had participated. The first year we had 20 shooters. The next year we had 24. This year we are no longer having the match.

OK, I don't want to sound critical, but quite frankly it's harmful to the ICORE organization when people run "ICORE-like" outlaw matches. The only reason not to form an ICORE-affiated club and run real ICORE matches is to screw the national organization out of the few bucks it costs to be legit.

[Carmoney]

Some were USPSA and IDPA folks that feel that revos in those two organizations aren't quite as welcomed as they once were.

That's kind of a weird thing to say--at least with regard to USPSA, which has approved two major rule changes (first allowing aftermarket barrels and mods, and later allowing the 8-minor option) that have dramatically expanded the USPSA-eligible equipment, and created a separate USPSA Nationals event (in conjuction with the SS Classic) that has attracted 5 times the previous number of attendees. I have been critical of USPSA in the past for not properly supporting Revolver Division, but I really can't make much of an argument these days.

[Carmoney]

First is the entry cost. Any decent revolver you buy today will cost you. Then you have to buy a holster, speedloaders/mooclips, holders for each respectively. There is no real entry level for ICORE.

Third to keep a sport growing you must have an easy entry point. ICORE introduced the "classic division", but still, you need the proper gear to have a good time. Getting speed loaders out of nail pouches and pockets gets old quickly.

I love ICORE, but the reality of it is that it is expensive, difficult and hard to get into for most folks. My two cents

I'm not buying this either. What does it cost to get a used K-frame with enough Comp IIIs and holders to shoot an ICORE match? Less than the average USPSA Production or SS rig. Not sure how you could get more "entry level" than that.

[Forrest Halley]

Mike,

You can't ignore the fact that revolver equipment is a bit of a hesitation for new shooters. You have a bunch of revolvers and you have the gear. You're looking at folks who are getting a second gun just to get into ICORE. They don't have big blue machines to make ammo. They don't have Spackle buckets filled with .38 brass.

It takes money for a noob to get a revolver competition worthy. It took me a bit of time and money spent to feel comfortable diving under the side plate and making things smooth. It's hard for someone to fall in love with a trade in Model 10 and dump money into the ugly duckling to turn it into a swan. The revolvers don't come with Comp3's and HKS is generally the only option available at the point of purchase.

The 8 shot change has had a bigger effect on the division than you'll ever admit. It was definitely a game changer. With 33% more ammunition under the hammer after every reload the standing reloads are gone and the six shooters have fallen off the cutting edge. No GM, M, or A shot major at the national. You should still hold your own with a six shot, but you're not going to give up those extra rounds. I'm late to get on the eight shot bus, but I saw the advantage on my first cylinder when two live rounds popped out at reload time. I can't see a reason to shoot major anymore unless a six shot neutral national comes along. On the plus side I can load one load for everything from three gun to revolver games.

I'll venture to guess that the rule change added very few new shooters to the sport, but may have swelled the numbers with division crossover shooters. The 8 shots are pretty expensive to purchase. My 929 was expensive in comparison to an M&P but less expensive than my single stack 10mm 1911. This leads me to guess that the eight shot folks are already competitive shooters.

[RevoWood123]

Some were USPSA and IDPA folks that feel that revos in those two organizations aren't quite as welcomed as they once were.

That's kind of a weird thing to say--at least with regard to USPSA, which has approved two major rule changes (first allowing aftermarket barrels and mods, and later allowing the 8-minor option) that have dramatically expanded the USPSA-eligible equipment, and created a separate USPSA Nationals event (in conjuction with the SS Classic) that has attracted 5 times the previous number of attendees. I have been critical of USPSA in the past for not properly supporting Revolver Division, but I really can't make much of an argument these days.

I agree USPSA has made an worthwhile effort to promote more for revolver shooters than they have in the past, I was talking not so much about the USPSA organization as I was more so the shooters who don't think revolvers belong there.

[Carmoney]

I can't see a reason to shoot major anymore unless a six shot neutral national comes along.

It turns out we had a six shot neutral USPSA Revo Nationals at Barry this year--in 2015! (But nobody knew that ahead of time, and most of us made the logical assumption that 8-minor would be advantageous, as it generally is.)

Back on topic: I really don't think cost of entry is an issue. People love to spend money on guns and gear. Right now the latest craze at my club involved tricked-out CZs and Tanfos for Production Division. Between the gun, mags, and rig, these guys are dropping $2000 without batting an eye. People who are halfway serious about shooting revolver are not going to hesitate to buy good equipment. The problem is, most shooters simply don't have the desire to tackle a discipline that is truly difficult to master. They want the gun that is easier to shoot. It's really that simple.

[RevoWood123]

Mike, I agree with you that I don't think that it is anymore expensive to get into than any other competitive pistol sport. I think that there are just fewer people shooting revolvers in various types of shooting sports. There are plenty of revolvers sold every year (I work at a gun shop, and we sell a lot of revos), but I don't think many of the people buying them think about them in terms a competitive firearm, or they have no desire/ intent to shoot competitively at all. There are some people who buy them intending to shoot them competitively, but most of those guys have already been shooting USPSA/IDPA already and are wanting to "try something different". Do they intend to put forth the same amount of effort to master it as they did with their other divisions? Maybe, maybe not.

The problem I think for most places where ICORE/ revolver is starting to fade away is that either the shooters aren't showing up or there is a small concentration of them and it doesn't make it worth it for a MD to hold a match with so few shooters. I know some people have done outlaw before to allow autos, but I don't think that is the answer to bring participation to ICORE. I think they would just shoot it because its something else they could shoot, I doubt it would make them want to get a revolver to shoot ICORE. I think the best way to get more shooters for ICORE is to find them. Go to local ranges, find guys shooting revolvers and talk to them about it. I talk to customers about it all the time, especially those buying a new revolver. The local club that I belong to used to have ICORE matches, but the MD doesn't have the time to put into the past couple years, so I took the baton from him and have committed myself to doing it for at least the next couple years. I know that it may be difficult to get started, but I am going to do all I can to make it happen for those who want it.

http://www.icore.org/CylindersTurn/CT_Spring_2013_web.pdf

Confessions of a rookie match director. I am finding myself in this guys shoes right now. I have not been and MD before, but I am ready to make it work. I think this is what we need to do to make ICORE bigger, find guys who have the interest and make the necessary time and effort to make matches happen.

[Forrest Halley]

People who are halfway serious about shooting revolver are not going to hesitate to buy good equipment. The problem is, most shooters simply don't have the desire to tackle a discipline that is truly difficult to master. They want the gun that is easier to shoot. It's really that simple.

So now that the problem has been clearly identified, (Getting the average shooter halfway serious about revolver shooting...) how do we fix it?

For starters I believe the manufacturers should start shipping revolvers with some of these accessories (3-4 Comp 2-3's or ten moonclips) and some literature on competitions. There doesn't seem to be any revolver sold currently that is truly as match ready as an XDm is straight out of the box. This would really allow people to see a revolver as something other than a six or eight shot long reload time proposition.

Consider a discounted match fees for the new guys and also for the person bringing them along as they are likely supplying gear and ammo. Encourages referrals...

Ensure that squads are set up with experienced competitors to help the new shooters excel. Frustration is a roadblock to enjoyment of shooting.

[RevoWood123]

Forrest I really liked what you just said. I think that would be great ideas for anybody who is running matches to get more involved. I really like the idea of the referrals, bring somebody and get a discount. I know when I first started shooting ICORE, if I didn't have other experienced shooters around me to offer me tips/ spare ammo/ spare moonclip holders/ etc, I wouldn't have had nearly as much fun and would have been much more frustrated just starting out. I know there were a couple matches that had some long field courses in it and if nobody had let me borrow extra moonclip holders, I would have ran out of rounds before reaching the end (let alone the mikes).

As far as the manufacturers, I think they maybe be slow to get around to the idea, but they should be somewhat perceptive to it. I know that various MFGs have tried rebates with spare mags and other accessories thrown in through dealer incentives (like the M&P when they did the range kit with 3 mags, holseter, mag carrier and mag loader). I would guess that it would be more advantageous if the home org. were to contact them vs local/regional MDs. But I could see the advantage for both the sport and the manufacturers to offer something to that effect. They could send the MFG some publication to put in the boxes with the guns perhaps to let people know about competitive pistol sports.

[Carmoney]

Great posts, Forrest and RevoWood.

[Cd662]

I've posted this before but I think everyone has the wrong perspective here. Cost of equipment is a valid part of the argument but I don't think its the primary reason. Let's be brutally honest here for a moment.

People like IDPA because there is entertainment value. People love being able to talk about the real or imagined value of "self defense oriented" shooting. On the club level where the majority of participants shoot, stages are generally very easy. Targets are at 5 - 10 yards and a mediocre shooter can take his time and have "down zero" on most of the targets. It's enough to make people feel good and keep them coming back. The average skill level is prety low.

People like USPSA because they get to do exciting, unconventional things based on speed. They get to run with a gun and shoot very quickly at targets.

Revolver shooting has historically been an accuracy dependent format and ICORE is no exception. If we look at the traditional NRA sports where revolvers were king, they are all dying out. NRA Bullseye, Action Pistol (including the Bianchi Cup), and PPC (Someone just posted on Revo nation about PPC possibly phasing out revolver divisions and sub-matches) have all been suffering significantly. People don't really want to shoot revolvers, in general. People also don't want to shoot games that at heavily dependent on accuracy because there is no amount of extra shots, running around like a maniac, or other novelty that can improve prove shooting. You have old gear and formats that are perceived to be old. Cost is a factor, but anyone getting into shooting sports seriously is going to spend money, there's no way around it.

Regarding ICORE in particular, I have been trying to increase attendance in the area and ICORE has not really done any significant advertisement in recent history. I spoke to a member of the board of directors and they have some new staff this year. They are aware of the need to market to a new crowd. It's not going to happen overnight. IDPA has a whole giant marketing team, heavily sponsored by Smith and Wesson. USPSA has a wide presence and is represented on TV through Hot Shots and IPSC (related enough to USPSA) has a national presence.

The big thing is consciously marketing to non-ICORE shooters. I've been hosting a local match series and there are people coming out with 4 inch guns, HKS speedloaders, and leather holsters. These are precisely the people we need. I tell them to bring two speedloaders and they load the first 6 by hand, so they have 18 rounds available. There's tons of classifiers that only require 12 rounds. Talk to people. Invite guests to a match. Talk to the guy shooting his Model 10 at the range and tell him he could be shooting on the move or shooting at moving targets. I think it's going to be a struggle for awhile, but eventually we can get more people involved on a significant scale.

[Cd662]

crotchthrower - I'm kind of dissapointed with how that went with your range, it wasn't your fault. If the range had accommodated a sanctioned match, the turnout could have been pretty good and they would have made money. I tried my best to help support that and spent some of my own dough on the awards. Maybe the idea can be revisited in the future, I see plenty of wheelgunners on my travels through your area.

[mikeAZ]

DON"T MOVE TOO ARIZONA!...You can shoot belt fed, sub gun, revolver, ICORE, USPSA, Tuesday night steel (even in the summer heat there are slightly less than 150 shooters per match per week), rifle, GSSF and on and on....and most of the indoor ranges have some kind of competition....You will often find world class shooter's at a normal match...AND they are not always the match winner's.....