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Wanting to reload for my precision rifle


Djstorm100

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I've been shooting Federal Gold Match with 175SMK and keeping the form fire brass just for this rifle (Remington 700 AAC-SD)

I reload on a single Lee press.

This is where I'm getting confused. I tired to chamber the empty brass in to the rifle and it chambers fine, this of course was without a bullet/primer/powder. Just using the brass case.
It chamber fine! What I though would happen is, the brass wouldn't chamber and I would need to bump the shoulder back. I come to realize that it will take multiple firings in order for the bolt not to close due to the shoulder/brass growth.

I tired to bump the shoulder back anyhow for giggles and learning experience. Using RCBS, it seems that the die's are cut too deep thus can't shoulder bump. Has anyone experience this with RCBS dies?

I reload now for .223 (AR) but I've gotten in to the precision game and my goal is to get the cases uniformed as best as I can. So that would mean equal lengths, shoulders bumped all the same.

So should I full length all my fire formed brass or just neck size? I feel as if I FL then the point of it being fire form to the chamber is pointless?

Could I get a little help on how you guys load up your precision ammo? With this Factory ammo and me doing my parts I've gotten .41" 5shoot groups.

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Dj,

What you experienced is to be expected.

All chambers are cut slightly larger and longer than SAAMI standards for ammunition.

This is so that any factory ammo will chamber easily.

However, chambers sizes are not absolute.

They are cut with reamers and there are minimum and maximum tolerances to every dimension.

When you fire the factory ammo, internal pressure will force the brass to take the shape of the chamber, what you refer to as fire forming.

The brass will spring back slightly but should still chamber in your gun and is now a nearly perfect fit.

Most precision reloaders would neck size only to avoid disturbing the body of the case.

After you neck size and fire several times the brass will grow a bit and become hard to chamber.

At this point, you will want to full length size or use a body die to bump the shoulder back to reset the headspace on the case.

This is where it gets tricky.

As stated, your chamber is a bit long.

Fire forming will cause the case to stretch until it fits between the shoulder of the chamber and the face of the bolt.

When you size the body of the case you don't want to push the shoulder back too much.

Constant stretching and compression can cause the case to thin just ahead of the cartridge base and might separate on firing.

I seriously doubt that the RCBS dies are cut too long.

Get a headspace gage from Dillon or Wilson. It is the best $30 you will ever spend on reloading.

Also, make sure you have a good set of dial calipers.

These tools will tell you exactly what is happening.

The gage has a chamber cut into it that matches the SAAMI standard for that caliber.

The gage also has a slight groove milled into the base.

When you set your body or full length die, adjust it until the case fits into the gage properly.

A case that protrudes beyond the base of the gage is too long; tighten the die down accordingly

A case that sinks past the bottom of the grooved cut is too short; back the die off.

Once the cases fit this gage they are reset to factory spec and will chamber in yours, or any other gun of the same caliber.

If you only fire them in your gun then you need not shrink them back to factory.

Only bump them a few thousandths until they chamber easily in your gun.

This will avoid working the brass too much.

Tls

Edited by 38superman
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I am newer to reloading precision rifle, but have had decent results. I have not gotten to the point of refining the neck sizing, and only bumping .002-.003" yet. I still FL size each case. Yes, it works the brass more, and I may be losing out on accuracy. I still manage 0.5 moa with FGMM clone re-loads (great thread on the old snipershide about the load data). I am running mine in a 700 police model.

38 Superman has the good answers for neck sizing. I don't want to come of as offensive, but how are you measuring if the neck is pushed back? As 38superman said, a good set of tools will help refine your data for you.

Another good resource if you are a visual person is 8541Tactical on youtube. He runs through how he builds up his match loads with both ladder tests and OCW tests.

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I am newer to reloading precision rifle, but have had decent results. I have not gotten to the point of refining the neck sizing, and only bumping .002-.003" yet. I still FL size each case. Yes, it works the brass more, and I may be losing out on accuracy. I still manage 0.5 moa with FGMM clone re-loads (great thread on the old snipershide about the load data). I am running mine in a 700 police model.

38 Superman has the good answers for neck sizing. I don't want to come of as offensive, but how are you measuring if the neck is pushed back? As 38superman said, a good set of tools will help refine your data for you.

Another good resource if you are a visual person is 8541Tactical on youtube. He runs through how he builds up his match loads with both ladder tests and OCW tests.

I use a headspace garage to measure shoulder bumping back. I also measure neck tensions since I just pick up a lee collect die.

The rcbs dies where cut to long I confirmed with rcbs after some measurement. Pick up some

Hornady dies.

Plan to use lee neck die and hornady bull let seating die

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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I am newer to reloading precision rifle, but have had decent results. I have not gotten to the point of refining the neck sizing, and only bumping .002-.003" yet. I still FL size each case. Yes, it works the brass more, and I may be losing out on accuracy. I still manage 0.5 moa with FGMM clone re-loads (great thread on the old snipershide about the load data). I am running mine in a 700 police model.

38 Superman has the good answers for neck sizing. I don't want to come of as offensive, but how are you measuring if the neck is pushed back? As 38superman said, a good set of tools will help refine your data for you.

Another good resource if you are a visual person is 8541Tactical on youtube. He runs through how he builds up his match loads with both ladder tests and OCW tests.

I use a headspace garage to measure shoulder bumping back. I also measure neck tensions since I just pick up a lee collect die.

The rcbs dies where cut to long I confirmed with rcbs after some measurement. Pick up some

Hornady dies.

Plan to use lee neck die and hornady bull let seating die

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I just wanted to make sure you had the right tool for headspace. I have heard of some weird solutions before.

Haven't heard of RCBS having the length issue before, did you try e-mailing them?

I have used Hornady dies for 300blk, and some pistol. I have recently stuck to Forester and Redding for my rifle stuff.

How are you liking the Lee Collet die?

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That's very interesting about the RCBS dies.

Any thing that is manufactured is subject to defect I guess.

That said, I own 16 sets of RCBS dies and have never seen, or even heard of this before.

Has to be pretty rare. In any case, they will take care of it.

RCBS has outstanding customer service.

FWIW, I've used the dies from every major manufacturer but my favorite is Redding.

Tls

Edited by 38superman
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Your method is not wrong but there are other ways.

When neck sizing I simply measure the O.D. of the neck on a loaded round.

Measure several rounds and roll the cartridge to take measurements in more than one spot.

As mentioned earlier, unturned brass will vary in thickness.

Once you have a good sampling, take an average.

Subtract .002 from the O.D. of the neck and that's the bushing I use.

I have no experience with Lee collet dies but this my the method for the Redding S type neck sizer.

Tls

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It's really easy to get carried away when it comes to reloading, particularly if the term "precision" is involved.

I'd really suggest you avoid the mistake a lot of people make by saving up their Federal brass. It's a bit soft and doesn't reload that well for more than a few cycles. You are often better off cost wise by starting with new brass.

Winchester brass is reasonably priced and works quite well, Lapua is better but more expensive. You can load either out of the box in your bolt gun and then just neck size it after that. After enough cycles, you will probably want to anneal the necks but that's quite a while down the road.

You might also want to head over to the Sniper Central Forum and read the debates going on there between guys who take the term precision really seriously and are willing to spend a great deal of time and money to achieve it. Lots of good information if you can scale it down to a beginners level.

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I have shot long range F-class Open for about 10 years…I'm not really that good, but my wife is very good. She is a national champion and still holds the women's 1000 yard record, so I know my loading method works…its not the only way, but it works. Here is what I do. YMMV

Own a redding neck sizing die and various bushings to get the neck interference (i.e. neck tension) that works best…really doesn't matter what the measurement is…test it on the target. Own a shoulder bumping die for when the headspace increases to the point that the last little bit of closing the bolt gets hard. Bump the shoulder back 0.001" - 0.002" depending on how well your press and brass maintain consistency. My Redding T-7 turret and annealed brass are consistent so I can usually do 0.001" setback. Own a FL die for when the bolt is hard to close for the full rotation. I usually neck size and only bump shoulder every 3-5 firings and hardly ever FL size.

Do you self a favor and run from anyone that tells you to neck turn, especially on a factory chamber. Neck turning is for custom, tight chambered barrels where you have specified a neck diameter on your custom reamer. Even then, I have found it to not make any difference on the target. In fact, I sold all three of my neck turners just so I would not be tempted to ever turn necks again.

I size my neck down below the final ID I want. Then I open the neck back up with a mandrel like the ones used for neck turning. Then all of the inconsistency of the neck wall thickness is pushed to the outside and my neck tension is consistent. I have found very light neck tension to work best for me, so by using mandrels for neck turning, I end up with 0.0075" - 0.001" neck interference (i.e. tension). Works for me. If I wanted for neck tension, then I would just take the mandrel and spin it in a drill and use emory to make it smaller to get the interference (tension) I wanted.

Lots of ways to do it…this one ay that works for me.

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- You are just firing the brass, you are not fire forming. Fire forming is when you fire brass in a chamber to form the brass from one caliber to another i.e. shooting a .223 in a .223 AI chamber, after its been fired once it is now fire-formed and you can use .223 AI data.

- You should always be able to get a stick of fired brass back in the rifle it was shot out of. It gets a little more tricky but for the most part applies to bolt guns and some semi autos. the reason semi auto rifle fired brass stretches so much, especially M14 brass, is that the brass is "stuck" to the chamber as the extractor starts working and effectively stretches the brass out a little.

- Bumping the shoulder and sizing are two different things and are both kind of related. Among the many kinds of dies there are neck dies that only size the nexk, FL dies size the neck, set or "Bump" the shoulder back and size the OD of the case body. there are also Bump dies which only set the shoulder of the case back and neck / shoulder dies that size the neck, set or "bump" the shoulder back but don't size the body of the case.

- I doubt that the RCBS dies are the issue if you cant FL size enough provided you know how to measure cases properly to determine how much you are setting back the shoulder. the .308 requires much more effort then a .223 to FL size and I suspect two things, one; you need to screw your dies down more. two; that aluminum lee press is flexing and not helping things at all which will contribute to the problem. It is possible that you might have to grind down the base of the die a little but its likely your rifle and press that's the issue vs. the dies.

- I FL all my ammunition to include 1000 high power rifle ammo and I am a NRA LR HM. I set the shoulders on the cases back .001-.002. To date I have not neck turned ammunition.

- You are going to have to trim all your cases if you want consistent OAL case lengths even if they are all the same before you size the cases.

- I would FL size all my brass if it was my rifle. that Remington rifle has a huge chamber and leade if its like 99% of all the factory Remington rifles out there.

- .41 5 shot group is pretty darn impressive for a factory rifle... just saying its a little hard to swallow. There is a reason that a quality barrel alone costs 325.00 for just the blank and that Hogue stock is not doing you any favors. You also have a 20" barrel .308 rifle so its not going to be a proper target rifle. If I had one of those rifles, and I might buy one as a suppressor rifle, I would be down right impressed with a 2" 10 shot group at 200 YDS.

- I would not waste my time turning necks for that rifle with that chamber shooting FC GM brass. I suspect that the primer pockets will open up after one or two reloads to the point where you will have to scrap the brass. You are better off buying some Lapua brass and a chronograph if you don't already have one to start, and there is a lot more to it then just turning the necks. There is a benefit and you will get more consistent neck tension but there are other things that will help.

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I did quite a bit of testing factory loads to see what my rifle liked. That process was very informative.

Because of what was available to me, I ended up with a lot of Federal and Privi brass.

When I started load development, I focused on the Privi brass, but also loaded some Federal. I found that the Federal was much harder to extract than the same load in Privi brass. It is so much of a problem, my Federal brass is heading to the recycler. It isn't worth the trouble. To be clear, there are no over pressure signs.

I now have my Privi brass, a really nice load and 200 new Lapua cases. I'm sure I'll be buying more.

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Good call on the FC brass. It is hard to beat FC match ammunition with hand loads in many cases.

I don't know about the Privi brass without measuring and weighing it. The Lapua will be better but might be thicker then the Privi brass. the reason you were getting extraction trouble with the FC brass is that its thicker then the privy brass and has less capacity and as such generates more pressure. It has less internal volume then LC brass.

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Do you self a favor and run from anyone that tells you to neck turn, especially on a factory chamber. Neck turning is for custom, tight chambered barrels where you have specified a neck diameter on your custom reamer. Even then, I have found it to not make any difference on the target. In fact, I sold all three of my neck turners just so I would not be tempted to ever turn necks again.

I would disagree with this. You can neck turn on a factory rifle people do it you just "Orange Peel" the brass so that is even as much as possible you can usually get it over 70% uniformity. I'm not the husband of a world class female shooter but I can tell you 70% is better then 0% here are some articles/discussions.

http://www.sinclairintl.com/.aspx/lid=16135/GunTechdetail/Outside-Case-Neck-Turning-for-Factory-Rifles-

http://benchrest.com/archive/index.php/t-73635.html?s=c3fa63587d0349f467c7e4a1e77cc8e3

Edited by deerassassin22
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Because of what was available to me, I ended up with a lot of Federal and Privi brass.

I know that some may disagree, but I think that in the long run it's a false economy starting with anything other that good quality virgin brass for precision loading.

Loading for 3-gun or sport or anything else may be a different story. But for high quality loads for bolt gun target shooting you are better off if you use brass that's never been shot from another gun. That way you "fireform"* it to your gun from the start without having to overwork it by full length sizing it back down before loading. It's also less work and eliminates the need of some additional equipment when you are first starting up.

*And, yes, I suppose that it's technically not fireforming, but that term is so commonly used for this that it's hard not to use the term.

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  • 5 months later...

This is something I'm experiencing right now--a precision rifle I bought in 30-06 and am loading for right now was chambered with a very tight spec reamer. It just barely would not close on a Go gauge, but would fit full length resized brass rather easily. This was a match rifle in .30-06 built some undeterminable time ago but in perfectly good shape, nice 26" Douglas barrel, and I don't think someone would have spent the money to make something this nice to not have it done right. What should I think about this?

Dj,

What you experienced is to be expected.

All chambers are cut slightly larger and longer than SAAMI standards for ammunition.

This is so that any factory ammo will chamber easily.

However, chambers sizes are not absolute.

They are cut with reamers and there are minimum and maximum tolerances to every dimension.

Edited by yellowfin
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  • 2 months later...

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