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PPC and PPC handguns


Pierruiggi

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I've seen on some gunsmith's websites some PPC 1911s.

Can anyone explain what does PPC shooting consists of and the gun's usual modifications?

I'm specially curious about that thing that... well... it looks like a big steel bar on top of the slide, and also the huge and tall sights. Although I'd like to know what are some other common modifications to PPC guns.

Here's a picture of a 1911 sporting both features I'm most curious about.

edit: moved to Other Shooting Sports on request..

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looks like a sight rid such as an Aristoctrat. It is a rib with a cam arangement to change the sight settings as you move from 6,25 & 50 yards. I used a neck hold at 50 and 25 yard. They can be sighted in at the ranges so when you move forward on the line you just adjust the settings.

Hope this helps

Dan C

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Brownell's has them. Catalog #57, p.307

on their websight...044-000-023 in the search box should bring up the right page

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Google for "Aristocrat rib"...Cylinder & Slide tops the google list.

They have it on the "Pin Guns"

gun-2page.JPG

http://www.cylinder-slide.com/pinwheeler.shtml

Clark Custom does them too.

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Looks like there is a forum for PPC shooting. And, at least one topic on teh rib: http://www.network54.com/Forum/thread?foru...5&lp=1045954877

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Stupid questions.

1. Is that a Springfield custom shop gun?

2. Factory fitted rib or aded by gunsmith?

I don't find your questions stupid.

1. Yes it is, I took the picture from Springfield's website.

2. The rib is fitted by Springfield's gunsmiths in the factory... So it's both. :)

Danva:

Thanks, what is a "neck hold"?

Let me see if I understand, this rib is basically a mechanical device that retains a certain setting of the sights?

I mean, you adjust your sights so that your reloads hit POA at 10 yds and give that setting a preset number 1; adjust them again to hit POA at 25 yds and give that setting number 2 and so on; so that when you shoot at 50 yds for example you just put the preset number 3 for example and know you'll hit POA.

Is that how it works?

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"Neck hold" is what we used to aim at when shooting at 50 yrds. It is the narrowest part of the full size target. You adjust yous sights to hold at the top of shoulders vertical and center of the neck to hit in the center ring.

This is what I was taught and it worked quite well.

Don't forget to change your sights when you go back to 6yrd line or you will shoot at the bottom of target!

Danva

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For more detail on the PPC "tri-set" type ribs they work like this. There are at least four versions of "mutli-set ribs that I am aware of.

ARISTOCRAT TRI-SET: two versions; one you use a screw driver for the quick adjustment, and the other has a small knob which can be turned with the fingers. These adjustments occur at the rear sight. The ARISTOCRAT TRI SET rear sight is available without a rib too.

BILL DAVIS: I think it is made for him by ARISTOCRAT, but not certain. The quick tri set adjustment takes place at the front sight, and can be adjusted without screwdriver once set.

RON POWERS: This rib has the adjustments at the rear. I am unfamilar with any detail on the POWERS rib.

For the ARISTOCRAT and DAVIS ribs: They have three "quick adjustment" settings which can be adjusted with precision with screws to zero.

Postion One (!): Is normal what you see is what you get sighting. Designed for point of aim, point of impact sighting. Of course there is plenty of adjustment for 6 oclock hold and normal sighting tolerances. Postion One can be used like any normal sights at any distance.

Postion Two (2): Is designed to drastically lower the rear sight, quickly, so that one can aim at the head or neck of a NRA B27 target at 25 yds and the bullets will impact in the target (X) center which is approximately 15" lower than the head area of a B27. As previously mentioned this provides a more defined aiming area on the target, and prevents the bullet hole distraction or distortion in the aiming area. Some use this setting at 7 and 15 yds too. They hold approximately on the upper "9" at 7yds and on the upper "8" at 15 yds, then hold at the head at 25 yds and all bullets will impact target center with bullet hole distractions. Position two can be used at any distance 25yds or closer, but you would have to determine the hold area on the B27. This position could not be used at 50 yds as the "drop" would be double the drop at 25 yds, placing the impact in the groin of a B27 target.

Postion Three (3): Designed to lower the rear sight so that a head or neck hold may be used at 50 yds and the bullets will impact approximately 15" lower in the target (X) center of the NRA B27 silhouette. Position three can be used at all PPC distances 7,15,25 &50yds but only the 50 would be the head hold and one would have to determine the hold area of the other distances. As an example it would likely be something like this. 7yds prbably hold at the top of the X ring area. 15yds the hold would probably be just above the top "9" and at 25 yds the hold would be in the upper sternum area. 50yds the head. This technique would require no sight adjustments, but would require hold adjustments att he different distances. You can forget your screwdriver, but you can't forgrt your brain!

When using postions 2 and 3 it is very important that the target is hung vertically accurate. As the impact area needs to be directly below the aiming area, or one can loose points out the sides unnecessarily. If you ever try one of these ribs or sights on an NRA B27 at 25 and 50 yds, you will never go back to center hold at 50 yds and probably not go back to center hold at 25yds!

Hope this helps,

MJ

ps. Any PPC shooter who has been using these sights probably loves them, But any PPC shooter who has been using these sights probably has either forgot to change the setting and aimed at the wrong place, or they have aimed at the right place with the wrong setting. But I have also tried to compete with an empty gun too! The mind is a terrible thing.

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Be careful explaining the "neck hold" technique, especially to those outside the U.S.

Most countries (like Canada) that allow non LEO competitors to participate in PPC matches use a target without a neck and head. All that's above the "body" is a big "X" thereby rendering the neck sighting technique impossible.

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CAUTION for what?

The target is the target. Most police agencies used the B27 for LE qualifying well into the 1970's. I think the Feds were the first to bail on it. Not because it had a head, but because it was black. For qualifying, my recall was that the bullet hit value was 5 instead of 10 points. 60 rounds would give a 300 and anything 8 ring or better was a 5, seven ring was a 4 anything in the black of the silhouette was a 3. All cops would have bragging rights for a 300 on qualifying!

The NRA B27 target is still the official PPC / National Police Shooting Championships or NPSC target. It is a silhouette, it has a head and a neck and it is black too! Further it has an X, ten, nine, eight and seven ring. The official repair center is a black B27C which covers the 8 ring and in, and it is black. The black target is why the sights were developed to be able to hold at the head or neck. This way the "daylight" between the front sight and rear notch could be seen because the head or neck is not as wide as the body. Black sights on a black background is hard to define good sight alignment.

The ARISTOCRAT, DAVIS and other PPC ribs were made to be used in PPC. The sights were made for the target if you will. ALL NRA PPC events are fired on the NRA B27 target, if it is an official outdoor event with the 50 yd line being used, as mentioned in previous post. The neck or head hold can be used because all NRA B27, B34 and B29 targets are silhouettes with a head and a neck. The B29 and B34 are reduction targets for 25yd and 50 ft when the 50 yard line is not available.

If you don't want to shoot on a silhouette, which has a head and neck and is black, then NRA PPC is not the game for you. The NRA B27 looks like a silhouette of normal size human standing at attention with dark clothing without any facial features or other characteristics. Most LE shootings take place in low light or near darkness.

To my knowledge, turtles, coke bottles, bowling pins, squares, plates and the like have never been a major problem to LE and society. Humans no longer posessing heads or necks are not a threat either. However, humans still possessing heads are the biggest threat to mankind. If anticipating a human encounter, I would suggest that we train with realistic props, targets and the like. Most human LE encounters are not with naked albinos. Most burglars, rapist and the like do not wear all white clothing. Until the government requires all human members of our society to dress only in light tan or white, then we should have our LE guys and gals train on dark colored targets. The sight picture is much different shooting on a dark background. Most low light shooting the background is dark. Thank goodness that the NRA has not caved on this one. The NRA B27 lives!

p.s. AIM at the X above the body! Certainly the dimensions of the target are available. Simply set the gun up to do what you want if it can be done.

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Woah....relax buddy. Read my post before you get all "defensive". ;)

All I said was that you MAY be explaining the benefits of a "neck hold" to someone that can't use it because their respective country won't allow it.

By the way...I've shot PPC for over 20 years and yes, I am LEO ( a newby) so I'm well aware of what the target looks like and how a sight rib works. ;)

When I jump over the border to Canada to shoot a bit of PPC, the targets have no head SO a neck hold might not be possible with a target with no neck.

Sans the "speech" regarding the benefits of the B27, thanks for the great explaination of how the sight rib works. I'm sure the persons asking the question has a wealth of usable information.

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Chuck,

No harm taken, none intended.

Do you mean to tell me that in Canada, they (civilians I think you said) do not use a NRA B27 target when shooting PPC? Or, do they remove the head from the NRA B27 target?

If so, I guess that is the part that makes no sense to me. IDPA fired on other than IDPA targets is not IDPA, same for IPSC etc. The target is part of the game. The SuperBowl was played on a football field not a baseball diamond. The Bianchi Cup is fired on a NRA D1.....sighting for the specific target is part of the game.

I guess the NRA B6, B16 and the like will be next. They have bulls eyes, and the hug a cow people will probably get upset about that someday.

On a different topic the Patriots are three for four! Another 6 or 8 straight victories and they could dominate football, as Phil Hemphill does PPC, or Doug Koenig does Bianchi, or Rob Leatham does.....about everything he shoots!

MJ

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Yup...Canada removes the head and neck. They also use the IPSC "classic" target that is headless.

I've seen the headless B27 on the World1500 PPC web site as well.

Times are a changin ! :angry:

I do too in increments of 355/100 of an inch at a time :o

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Yup...Canada removes the head and neck. They also use the IPSC "classic" target that is headless.

I've seen the headless B27 on the World1500 PPC web site as well.

Times are a changin !  :angry:

I do too in increments of 355/100 of an inch at a time :o

oops! That would be in increments of 355/1000 inch at a time.

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  • 4 months later...

Pierruiggi;

Police Pistol Combat is an NRA event open to Police Officers and civilians (civilians cannot maintain a classification, so have to compete in Open class). PPC is a timed shooting event that stresses accuracy. All starts are either by the target exposing itself to the shooter or by a whistle. The target will disappear when the time has lapsed or a second whistle will blow. The time is very generous (the fastest stage in 12 rounds in 20 seconds at 7 yards, the slowest the 50 yard stage, 24 rounds in 2 min., 45 sec.), they want accuracy. The main event is called the 1500 and consists of 150 rounds fired from 7 to 50 yards in a variety of positions (kneeling, sitiing, prone, left hand barricade, right hand barricade), giving a maximum score of 1500. A good High Master shooter averages in the 1480's, meaning out of 150 shots only 10 or so drift into the Nine ring. The Ten ring is 6" tall and 4" wide. There are also matches for Service Revolver and Semi-Automatic. 1500 guns typically sport 6" barrels and sight ribs, which some of the other members explained. You want REALLY good sights in PPC, most shooters also use calcium carbide lambs to blacken their sights further, so they show up on the target, especially in bright sunlight. The neck hold is a common practice and is used at the 25 and 50 yard line, as it is very easy to see your sight against the skinny head of the B27. I don't use a neck hold, it's very easy for things to go horribly wrong, like forgetting to change your sights back or having the target appear at something less than completely vertical, which will cause your bullets to drop into a neat group in the Eight Ring. I have a Wichita Rib on my 1500 gun, which features 4 sight height settings. Each height setting is a allen screw which interfaces with a wheel that the screws ride on. Once you set the elevation on each screw, you turn the wheel to the number height setting you want and you're good to go. I have two, 25 yards and in, and a 50 yard setting (the bullet drops slightly at 50). The Aristocrat rib is similar, with three settings and a small screw on the side the access them. Hope I explained it well enough. Let me know if you want the courses of fire or the side events (service revolver, etc).

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Apparently the NRA re-opened Open Class this year. I have an old rule book and therefore have no way of backing that up, and I'm sure that if you went to the NRA's website that would make things about as clear as mud... But here in New York we do allow civilians to shoot in Open Class (optics and everything) and we usually have 2-3 civilians per match. If you can find a club near you it's great accuracy development, and there's some really great people there. If you shoot the whole match (2 1500's, 2 Service Guns, and 1 Semi-Auto) it's 456 rounds. Now that's a lot of shooting!

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