Starter OPEN Gun

[kosh79]

Trunk are ya gonna have one built or you gonna hold out for a used one?

[Trunkmnky]

I am thinking prob. used. Not sure I want the new gun price. If I go new it will have to be a stock Trubor - Then I will buy a 90 degree mount and double under cut the trigger and get a *thumb rest [generic]* - later I would get a slide racker installed.

[AlphaShot]

If you are making the full move to open I recommend the Match Master. It will give you the confidence you need to shoot major matches and should run well. However if you plan to go back and forth between two divisions like I do I the shorter gun (Match Master) with the sideways mounted optic will shoot a lot more like your limited or production guns. This will aid in the transition back and forth.

[Trunkmnky]

I do like the shorter gun a lot more - However, it seemed the concesis was get the 5". I also will be going back and forth just for shooting time. I can shoot 6 IDPA match's a month - where as I can only shoot 2 USPSA at most. ( I would love to do it the other way around ) That is one reason I want to use the 90 degree mount. I am also trying to keep all the same grips too. The one concern I have is I shoot alot of 45 and it is starting to agrivate my wrist. I was hoping the comp would blow off a lot of that steam. I shoot a 45acp Custom STI Wide Body in 4.25 that I had built and love the balance of it well over my Eagle 5". Just point ability faster on draw ( Blah, Blah )

[Ofishl1]

There is absolutely nothing wrong with a "name brand" used gun, I bought a Bedell shorty .38 super on here for $2100 and it has run like a raped ape for 2 years straight... now a back up gun for steel mostly as I bought a full size Bedell with the same results and not looking back to a short frame ever again...full size all the way ...I know guys that have bought used Camerons, SVI's, Dawsons etc. and all ran great....just look for a good name...glad I went the way I did as well not wanting to put a bucket of cash into a "maybe" gun class coming from limited, plus I can reload supercomps 7-10 times, usually gets lost before they get a chance to crack.....if your running at major you cant reload 9mm like that no matter how cheap they are..and you have to keep a healthy supply of them around due to their short life cycle...a thousand pcs of Starline (all I run) cost me .15 each to run and 9mm is .13 each (again Starline)..this is really nothing in the game we play...plus I have never had a problem with Supercomp running consistently... in and out of battery whether for steel loads or major.....happy hunting.

[AWLAZS]

I reload my 9 major way more then 7-8 times.

[Sarge]

I reload my 9 major way more then 7-8 times.

Me too. I literally have no idea how many times I have loaded some of it. There isn't as much voodoo involved in 9MAJOR as people would have you believe. Be careful and pay close attention to what goes in, and what comes out of your press, and you will be fine.

Paying 13 cents for star line 9mm brass would be absolutely insane!

[mwc5]

I reload my 9 major way more then 7-8 times.

[kneelingatlas]

I reload my 9 major way more then 7-8 times.

Me too. I literally have no idea how many times I have loaded some of it. There isn't as much voodoo involved in 9MAJOR as people would have you believe. Be careful and pay close attention to what goes in, and what comes out of your press, and you will be fine.

Paying 13 cents for star line 9mm brass would be absolutely insane!

Yes! I can't stand hearing people talk about how dangerous 9 Major is, with 115gr bullets and SP2 I can literally fill the case right to the brim, seat a bullet and not get near as flat a primer as I do with my shorty 38.

[Trunkmnky]

I reload mine until the primer fall out of the pockets. LOL...... But they are not major. hahahaha ( Sorry felt left out. )

However, that is still good 7-8 load per case.

[openclassterror]

The "dangerous 9major" stuff comes from the guys running it in Glock open guns. Even the 9mm Glocks leave an unsupported area big enough to make cases bulge a little, and if that weak area lines up with ramp on the 3rd or 4th reload, your magazine is gonna end up on the ground. If you are lucky, you don't have grip chunks embedded in your hand. I have seen it happen. I won't pick up range brass with the Glock primer strikes, just because I don't know how hot it was loaded. You can usually see the bulge too if you look.

[KSwift]

Not that I've had any problems that weren't my fault like clicking up the safety during firing and breaking it off

What???

I'm imagining you flicking the safety up, pulling the trigger, and instead of not firing, it still shoots and shears the safety lever off.

Sounds like the gun has a pretty big problem.

[djt5656]

That's not what happened I had just got the gun and my grip wasn't right. My thumb was under the safety and during recoil it bumped the safety up when the slide returned to battery. It only happened once, but it created a small Crack and after 1000 rounds the left side arm of the safety just cracked of during dry fire.

[djt5656]

After that Jeff put a new sv safety on and with a proper grip. The gun now has 5000 rounds on it with zero problems.

[BeerBaron]

Oh they are taking over? Where all the major matches I shoot at and locals I see none. It's my opinion. 38 is far superior to 9mm. Your opinion is different than mine.

9 out of 10 Open guns built today are probably 9's. At the Majors I shoot at and the locals around here only a few dinosaurs shoot 38. I tried to keep a count at the last Area match I worked but it was so overwhelmingly obvious that 9MAJOR was the caliber of choice that I quit counting. Have talked to many 38 shooters who said the only reason the keep shooting it is they don't want to spend the money to rebarrel and rework their 38's.

38 is a dying breed.

Since the mods have already homed in on me that's about all I'm allowed to say. I won't argue the point any more.

Ok, so you've established that 38 is a dying breed and most people shoot 9major now. But other than brass cost, no one has stated an advantage of 9 over 38 super/supercomp. Still want to know as I am new to open.

I can try but it DOES revolve around brass. If you are wealthy enough to shoot 38 and let it lie without regret than by all means you should shoot it.

When I see shooters looking for brass instead of caring about the hits being scored on their targets, that's a problem.

When I hear shooters telling me starline will do another run of 38 in 2 months but until then they have to cut back on locals instead of preparing for a major match, that's a problem.

When a shooter is talking about how much he spent on a stage because he can't find his brass in the grass, that's a problem.

When a shooter says something like, yeah but I get a bigger fire ball out of my 38, that's a problem.

When most 38 shooters are waiting on vithavouri to make it's TWO deliveries to the states per year, that's a problem.

When a 38 shooter sees a home built 9MAJOR gun puke and thinks it's the caliber's fault, that's a problem.

When it's 95 degrees in the shade and you have been at a match all day, but you still need to try to at least find half of your brass after everybody else is having wings and beer, that's a problem.

When 38 shooters are still looking for brass while others are resetting the stage, that's a problem.

When your brass "stash" only numbers in the hundreds, that's a problem.

All of these take away from the shooting to an extent. When we are at a match we should be having fun and focus on the shooting. not worrying about any or all of the above. But like I said, if you can afford to buy several hundred dollars worth of brass per year and leave it lay after shooting it one time then by all means shoot it.

As far as the rounds themselves, comps and powders have come a long way. A bullet doing 1500 fps doesn't care what size case it came out of. I have actually heard a shooter say something like, "imagine if that had been a 38 super instead of a 9MAJOR that hit that prop". HUH? REALLY?

With a good comp and a load set up for it a 9MAJOR gun shoots just as well as any other open gun

Sarge, I do like you, but to be fair that massive list of reasons can basically be summed up by:

you believe people who shoot 38 super spend more time picking up brass or worrying about brass than those shooting 9mm.

it's really just one reason written 7 different ways.

the powder one I find odd. If anything I have found 38 super means you have more choices of powders that will make major PF over using a 9mm case as some powders you just cannot cram enough in there.

Now, I totally agree those saying 9mm is 'snappy' or whatever might be actually saying "the particular 9mm I shot was snappy" but then a 38 super in the same basic combination of barrel, comp, powder etc would be just as snappy. There is nothing inherently wrong with a 9mm case that would make it a snappier gun to shoot.

I also agree that since used 9mm brass is cheap and plentiful shooting 9mm major is cheaper. how much cheaper varies a bit from case to case. but it's definitely cheaper. if you (for some reason) bought all brand new 9mm starline it would cost the same (at least where I am 9mm and 38 super starline cost exactly the same $$).

I shoot a 38 super open gun but don't spend any more time picking up brass than I do for my 9mm production gun. for one thing on the outdoor ranges we like to shoot IPSC on it's not poilite to just leave your brass scattered all over. And for another usually others shooters pick up your brass for you after your run as you are looking at your hits, assessing your performance etc. it's just a nice thing to do for other shooters. We all pick each others brass. At a lost brass match, well different story but they are very rare in my area.

I'd happily have a 9mm open gun. but I also don't think 38 super is a dying breed. The 2011 action is well suited to a 38 super sized round. I also like the straight walled 38 super cases over the tapered 9mm.

kneelingatlas does make a worthy point though. there is a small saving in powder cost shooting 9mm major. and if it's expensive powder like VV it could mount up if you shoot a lot.

I will say at least the 38 super cases are bigger and easier for my crappy eyes to spot on the ground!

I won't deny it seems newly built custom guns are more often 9mm these days than 38 super. but I'd say that's 100% down to people wanting to save some $$.

Edited January 5, 2015 by BeerBaron

[Sarge]

Oh they are taking over? Where all the major matches I shoot at and locals I see none. It's my opinion. 38 is far superior to 9mm. Your opinion is different than mine.

9 out of 10 Open guns built today are probably 9's. At the Majors I shoot at and the locals around here only a few dinosaurs shoot 38. I tried to keep a count at the last Area match I worked but it was so overwhelmingly obvious that 9MAJOR was the caliber of choice that I quit counting. Have talked to many 38 shooters who said the only reason the keep shooting it is they don't want to spend the money to rebarrel and rework their 38's.

38 is a dying breed.

Since the mods have already homed in on me that's about all I'm allowed to say. I won't argue the point any more.

Ok, so you've established that 38 is a dying breed and most people shoot 9major now. But other than brass cost, no one has stated an advantage of 9 over 38 super/supercomp. Still want to know as I am new to open.

I can try but it DOES revolve around brass. If you are wealthy enough to shoot 38 and let it lie without regret than by all means you should shoot it.

When I see shooters looking for brass instead of caring about the hits being scored on their targets, that's a problem.

When I hear shooters telling me starline will do another run of 38 in 2 months but until then they have to cut back on locals instead of preparing for a major match, that's a problem.

When a shooter is talking about how much he spent on a stage because he can't find his brass in the grass, that's a problem.

When a shooter says something like, yeah but I get a bigger fire ball out of my 38, that's a problem.

When most 38 shooters are waiting on vithavouri to make it's TWO deliveries to the states per year, that's a problem.

When a 38 shooter sees a home built 9MAJOR gun puke and thinks it's the caliber's fault, that's a problem.

When it's 95 degrees in the shade and you have been at a match all day, but you still need to try to at least find half of your brass after everybody else is having wings and beer, that's a problem.

When 38 shooters are still looking for brass while others are resetting the stage, that's a problem.

When your brass "stash" only numbers in the hundreds, that's a problem.

All of these take away from the shooting to an extent. When we are at a match we should be having fun and focus on the shooting. not worrying about any or all of the above. But like I said, if you can afford to buy several hundred dollars worth of brass per year and leave it lay after shooting it one time then by all means shoot it.

As far as the rounds themselves, comps and powders have come a long way. A bullet doing 1500 fps doesn't care what size case it came out of. I have actually heard a shooter say something like, "imagine if that had been a 38 super instead of a 9MAJOR that hit that prop". HUH? REALLY?

With a good comp and a load set up for it a 9MAJOR gun shoots just as well as any other open gun

Sarge, I do like you, but to be fair that massive list of reasons can basically be summed up by:

you believe people who shoot 38 super spend more time picking up brass or worrying about brass than those shooting 9mm.

it's really just one reason written 7 different ways.

the powder one I find odd. If anything I have found 38 super means you have more choices of powders that will make major PF over using a 9mm case as some powders you just cannot cram enough in there.

Now, I totally agree those saying 9mm is 'snappy' or whatever might be actually saying "the particular 9mm I shot was snappy" but then a 38 super in the same basic combination of barrel, comp, powder etc would be just as snappy. There is nothing inherently wrong with a 9mm case that would make it a snappier gun to shoot.

I also agree that since used 9mm brass is cheap and plentiful shooting 9mm major is cheaper. how much cheaper varies a bit from case to case. but it's definitely cheaper. if you (for some reason) bought all brand new 9mm starline it would cost the same (at least where I am 9mm and 38 super starline cost exactly the same $$).

I shoot a 38 super open gun but don't spend any more time picking up brass than I do for my 9mm production gun. for one thing on the outdoor ranges we like to shoot IPSC on it's not poilite to just leave your brass scattered all over. And for another usually others shooters pick up your brass for you after your run as you are looking at your hits, assessing your performance etc. it's just a nice thing to do for other shooters. We all pick each others brass. At a lost brass match, well different story but they are very rare in my area.

I'd happily have a 9mm open gun. but I also don't think 38 super is a dying breed. The 2011 action is well suited to a 38 super sized round. I also like the straight walled 38 super cases over the tapered 9mm.

kneelingatlas does make a worthy point though. there is a small saving in powder cost shooting 9mm major. and if it's expensive powder like VV it could mount up if you shoot a lot.

I will say at least the 38 super cases are bigger and easier for my crappy eyes to spot on the ground!

I won't deny it seems newly built custom guns are more often 9mm these days than 38 super. but I'd say that's 100% down to people wanting to save some $$.

You guys do the brass thing totally different than we do where I shoot. We usually have a busy squad and we don't typically pick up brass for shooters. If they want it they can pick it up as the squad progresses through the stage. Seems quite a few just leave it lay here. The exceptions are the super shooters. They just look and look and look....... But the gravel in some of our pits locally like to make it disappear.

Like I said initially in line one. It DOES revolve around brass cost. But there are so many ways that it revolves around brass cost. I have never, and most likely will never, pay for 9mm brass. So the shock of going to super would be too much for me. To be honest though, I have thought of going with 38SC one of these days, but currently just can't see it happening. I am having a new Open gun built and it too is 9mm.

[BeerBaron]

I think what we are learning is that the way things operate in USPSA/IPSC differs plenty from state to state and certainly country to country. Even in practice at my club after a shooter runs the stage, one guy scores, one guy records the score and time, a couple guys patch and reset targets and one or two guys pick up brass and mags for the shooter who is most usually looking at any targets he is interested in. doesn't matter what you shoot your brass gets picked up and returned to you. some guys don't keep brass (get good free 9mm) and will usually just hand it off to someone else in the group that wants it. otherwise people usually just stick it back in their dirty brass bag.

I totally agree in your circumstances there is a fairly compelling argument to go 9 over 38. in my situation it's different. but I'm certainly not stupid enough to think a 9mm open gun is some kind of poor mans substitute for super. the ones I've shot prove that 9mm open major can be just as good or just as bad as 38 super major open guns can. just like with super you need the right load and the right set-up and they work just nicely.

[Trunkmnky]

Hello All,

I am getting closer to that turn to the dark side.

Wanted to get some more thought on rigs and what it is boiling down to.

Rig - Double Alpha - Race Master Magnetic Holster ( I can use this for limited and limited 10 also )

Double Alpha Race Master Mag pouch

Double Alpha Hich Touque Belt

Gun - STI Trubor or STI Match Master ( 9mm Major )

I really like the way the shorter gun points and balance just wondering the snappy difference.

I will purchase a 90 degree mount, slide racker and a *thumb rest [generic]*.

Please keep in mind when helping I will be shooting other sports with open sights

Currently Shooting a STI Eagle and a Fusion Grand Sport 4.25" ( Just for the record I do not recommend any build from Bob Serva @ Fusion Firearms )

So is it shorty or full size???????

I have seen some offers and people are asking more than a stock STI is worth new with no option. I do have my eye still on one used gun. Just waiting to see.

Let the opinions fly - You guys are the shooters who have been doing this. FYI - No I do not have 4-5k to spend

[DGS]

I think you'll always second guess yourself if you don't get the shorty you seem to really want. Either will work.

[kneelingatlas]

You can always calm down the snap of a shorty with heavier bullets

[Trunkmnky]

Kneelingatlas,

I am assuming 124 is heavy for a open gun or are you saying a 147? As most I know are shooting 115. In my knowledge the lighter bullets create more gas. Just asking because I am new at this. offer still stands for your pistol. hahahahah

[Trunkmnky]

Seems for power - you will need to push a

115 @ 1485

124 @ 1375

147 @ 1160

However, I would think the 147 would be a compressed load. And of course finding something that shoots flat. In a very limited powder market ( meaning hard to find any )

[BeerBaron]

For the rig I've tried the gear you mention and would reccomend

The daa racer mag pouches over race master. Cheaper and do the job just as well.

For the belt cr speed hi torque DELUXE.

I think the full length is the way to go but there are guys out there who shoot and enjoy shorties.

[kneelingatlas]

124s, I might even experiment with 135s.

As a rule more powder = more gas = flatter gun, but more powder is also louder, more violent and hits harder in the hand.

With Open guns I think there's a spectrum with soft/floppy at one end and violent/flat at the other.