Where in the rules is the DA or striker requirement for Production?

[alma]

Everyone knows that for USPSA Production division single action only guns are prohibited and the approved guns are either striker fired or double action first shot. Where in the current USPSA rulebook can I find a reference to this?

All I can find is a requirement in the Special Considerations section of Appendix D4 that specifies that the if the gun has an external hammer then it must start in the fully decocked position but otherwise see nothing stating that a single action only is ineligible for Production division aside from the requirement that guns be on the approved Production list.

IPSC rules are a bit more clear in specifically stating that single action guns are not authorized.

[johnsons1480]

That's a very interesting observation. I never noticed that there isn't any specific language barring SA guns in Production Division.

[56hawk]

Well, combine that with this rule and it becomes impossible to shoot a single acton pistol with an exposed hammer in Production:

8.1.2.1 “Single action” – chamber loaded, hammer cocked, and the safety engaged.

[MikeRush]

AFAIK there isn't- we have the list though. There are guns on the USPSA Production list that will not be allowed on the IPSC production list due to trigger mechanisms though.

For example, IPSC considers the XD to be a single action pistol, and will not allow it in Prod. Historically, IPSC has a clear stance on the matter- it was a DA/SA division, where Glock was allowed to play as an afterthought. The trigger does finish preloading the striker spring on the Glock- not sure on the XD?

[kcobean]

AFAIK there isn't- we have the list though. There are guns on the USPSA Production list that will not be allowed on the IPSC production list due to trigger mechanisms though.

For example, IPSC considers the XD to be a single action pistol, and will not allow it in Prod. Historically, IPSC has a clear stance on the matter- it was a DA/SA division, where Glock was allowed to play as an afterthought. The trigger does finish preloading the striker spring on the Glock- not sure on the XD?

No, on the XD the striker is fully loaded. Pulling the trigger merely releases it.

[ChuckS]

The rule was in Appendix D4, special condition 17 of the 2004 rulebook. SC17 primarily had to deal with cocking the gun prior to the first shot. 2004 was the last combined IPSC/USPSA rule book. I guess in deleting the cocking procedural, the "Single-action-only handguns are prohibited" statement went with it. I remember there was debate on which of the new plastic guns were SA and DA. Perhaps the elimination of the statement avoided the debate and the list was considered the ruling authority?

Later,

Chuck

[alma]

Chuck,

That's my assumption, that a line got deleted to fix one discrepancy and it inadvertently caused another.

Edited December 22, 2014 by alma

[Sarge]

AFAIK there isn't- we have the list though. There are guns on the USPSA Production list that will not be allowed on the IPSC production list due to trigger mechanisms though.

For example, IPSC considers the XD to be a single action pistol, and will not allow it in Prod. Historically, IPSC has a clear stance on the matter- it was a DA/SA division, where Glock was allowed to play as an afterthought. The trigger does finish preloading the striker spring on the Glock- not sure on the XD?

No, on the XD the striker is fully loaded. Pulling the trigger merely releases it.

Which by the rule book makes it SA only. This tells me the approved list is the only thing I need to worry about when determining legality of a gun for the division. The approved list is part of the rules and probably was the easiest way to say, "no 1911 style triggers in Production"?

[Graham Smith]

Strange. I definitely recall wording along the lines of "double action or 'safe action' " as a condition of a gun being allowed in Production.

[terrydoc]

AFAIK there isn't- we have the list though. There are guns on the USPSA Production list that will not be allowed on the IPSC production list due to trigger mechanisms though.

For example, IPSC considers the XD to be a single action pistol, and will not allow it in Prod. Historically, IPSC has a clear stance on the matter- it was a DA/SA division, where Glock was allowed to play as an afterthought. The trigger does finish preloading the striker spring on the Glock- not sure on the XD?

IPSC does not consider the XD a single action if you look on the Production list you will find them list there.

From the IPSC Production list - P9, XD, XD(M) (except ported models), XDS45

Not Approved: XDM 5.25 Series - XD/XDM Production model, XD/XDM Custom Competition model

[teros135]

Graham, could you point us to that wording in the current rule book? Thanks!

(edited for clarity)

Edited December 23, 2014 by teros135

[terrydoc]

Who you asking Teros?

[terrydoc]

PRODUCTION DIVISION

1 Minimum power factor for Major Not applicable

2 Minimum power factor for Minor -125

3 Minimum bullet weight No

4 Minimum bullet caliber / cartridge case length 9mm (0.354") / 19mm (0.748")

5 Minimum bullet caliber for Major Not applicable

6 Minimum trigger pull (see Appendix F2) 2.27 kg (5lbs) for first shot

7 Maximum handgun size Maximum barrel length- 127mm

8 Maximum magazine length- No

9 Maximum ammunition capacity -Yes, see Point 16.2 below

10 Max. distance of handgun and allied equipment from torso 50mm

11 Rule 5.2.10 / Appendix E2 applies- Yes

12 Optical/electronic sights- No

13 Compensators, ports, sound and/or flash suppressors -No

14. Only handguns listed as approved on the IPSC website may be used in Production Division. Note that handguns deemed by IPSC to be single-action-only are expressly prohibited.

15. Handguns with external hammers must be fully decocked. (see Rule 8.1.2.5) at the start signal. First shot attempted must be double action. Competitors in this Division who, after the issuance of the start signal and prior to attempting the first shot, cock the hammer on a handgun which has a loaded chamber, will incur one procedural penalty per occurrence. Note that a procedural penalty will not be assessed in respect of courses of fire where the ready condition requires the competitor to prepare the handgun with an empty chamber. In these cases, the competitor may fire the first shot single action.

16. Original parts and components offered by the OFM as standard equipment, or as an option, for a specific model handgun on the IPSC approved handgun list are permitted, subject to the following:
    1. Modifications to them, other than minor detailing (the removal of burrs and/or adjustments unavoidably required in order to fit replacement OFM parts or components), are prohibited. Other prohibited modifications include those which facilitate faster reloading (e.g. flared, enlarged and/or add-on magwells, etc.), changing the original color and/or finish of a handgun, and/or adding stripes or other embellishments.

    2. Magazines accessible to a competitor during a COF must not contain more that than 15 rounds at the Start Signal. Identifying marks or decals, internal capacity limiters, bumper pads and additional witness holes, which add or remove negligible weight to/from magazines, are permitted.

    3. Sights may be trimmed, adjusted and/or have sight black applied. Sights may also be fitted with fiber optic or similar inserts.

17. Aftermarket parts, components and accessories are prohibited, except as follows:
    1. Aftermarket magazines are permitted, subject to 16.2 above.

    2. Aftermarket open sights (see Rule 5.1.3.1) are permitted, provided their installation and/or adjustment requires no alteration to the handgun.

    3. Aftermarket grip panels which match the profile and countours of the OFM standard or optional grip panels for the approved handgun and/or the application of tape on grips (see Appendix E3) are permitted, However, rubber sleeves are prohibited.

Edited December 23, 2014 by terrydoc

[teros135]

Strange. I definitely recall wording along the lines of "double action or 'safe action' " as a condition of a gun being allowed in Production.

Who you asking Teros?

Sorry - wasn't clear. I was asking Graham.

[teros135]

PRODUCTION DIVISION

1 Minimum power factor for Major Not applicable

2 Minimum power factor for Minor -125

<snip>

Okay, but the response above was about IPSC, and the OP was asking about USPSA. There are differences, of course, especially IPSC being much tighter about using OEM equipment, not aftermarket parts.

Either way, USPSA doesn't seem to allow SA-only guns in Production. Although the rules don't *say* that explicitly, they're excluded by the Production gun list and the need to start hammer-down, if there's an external hammer (see above posts). It also doesn't specifically mention "striker" guns, which are mostly considered in the rule book as "DA", although as noted the XD seems to be a special case. In the end, it's a non-issue, covered by the rules.

[d_striker]

The USPSA/NROI Production gun list specifically leaves out all SA guns. Even if the current rules don't explicitly forbid SA guns, one can only use what's on the list.

IMO, it's pretty black and white.

Edited December 23, 2014 by d_striker

[alma]

I know it's black and white and I am not specifically arguing that SA should be allowed in Production (although the rules as written don't prohibit it except for the fact that no SA only guns are on the list).

I was just making a reference list for USPSA Production and IDPA SSP rules and could not locate any reference restricting USPSA Production to DA/Striker guns only. I know this had been in the rules previously so I am assuming that it has been inadvertently removed. It's kind of like the Production rule that says we can have an internal mag well that measures more than 1/4 inch wider than the mag front to back.

[terrydoc]

The rules do prohibit S/A pistols, because to shoot Production the guns must be on the lis,t as they are not on it they are prohibited by exception. Try using a S/A and let me know if you are allowed?

[PatJones]

A S&W M&P is a single action mechanism. It uses a striker, but that striker is fully cocked. Pulling the trigger simply drops the sear.

[alma]

The rules do prohibit S/A pistols, because to shoot Production the guns must be on the lis,t as they are not on it they are prohibited by exception. Try using a S/A and let me know if you are allowed?

Not that it matters to the discussion but I am not someone who wandered in off of the street who wants to shoot a SA in Production. I am a NROI CRO and Production Master ( http://uspsa.org/uspsa-classifer-lookup-results.php?Submit=Lookup&number=TY47309 )

I am not advocating for SA guns by any stretch. Just trying to verify that the USPSA Production rules got screwed up at some point and it isn't just me overlooking the obvious.

As written now the USPSA rules say nothing about the action type in the requirements to submit a gun for inclusion on the Production list. An SA only gun would never be added to that list but I think based on this thread I can confirm that the DA/striker fired requirement for Production is not currently supported by any clear section in the current version of the USPSA rulebook.

Edited December 23, 2014 by alma

[d_striker]

A S&W M&P is a single action mechanism. It uses a striker, but that striker is fully cocked. Pulling the trigger simply drops the sear.

IMO, the "action" classification of ALL striker fired pistols is an argument in semantics.

The trigger pull of Glocks and M&P's moves the striker back a tiny bit due to the geometry of the sear interacting with the striker. My question is whether or not this rearward movement of the striker is necessary to detonate the primer. If it isn't necessary, the rearward striker movement is extraneous and irrelevant.

Again, it's just my opinion and I agree that it seems all striker fired pistols fall more into a SA classification; however, the fact they are striker fired puts them into a different category.

Edited December 23, 2014 by d_striker

[PatJones]

The Glock is different as the striker is pulled further to the rear by the trigger bar. This does not happen with the M&P.

[Sarge]

The rules do prohibit S/A pistols, because to shoot Production the guns must be on the lis,t as they are not on it they are prohibited by exception. Try using a S/A and let me know if you are allowed?

Not that it matters to the discussion but I am not someone who wandered in off of the street who wants to shoot a SA in Production. I am a NROI CRO and Production Master ( http://uspsa.org/uspsa-classifer-lookup-results.php?Submit=Lookup&number=TY47309 )

I am not advocating for SA guns by any stretch. Just trying to verify that the USPSA Production rules got screwed up at some point and it isn't just me overlooking the obvious.

As written now the USPSA rules say nothing about the action type in the requirements to submit a gun for inclusion on the Production list. An SA only gun would never be added to that list but I think based on this thread I can confirm that the DA/striker fired requirement for Production is not currently supported by any clear section in the current version of the USPSA rulebook.

Well whipty friggin doooo . you are CRO and a Master level shooter!?! And that means what exactly? So, you found a problem with the rule book. Get in line with the rest of us. The approved gun list is part of the rules. Who gives a flying fu#% that it's not addressed elsewhere?

[MikeRush]

AFAIK there isn't- we have the list though. There are guns on the USPSA Production list that will not be allowed on the IPSC production list due to trigger mechanisms though.

For example, IPSC considers the XD to be a single action pistol, and will not allow it in Prod. Historically, IPSC has a clear stance on the matter- it was a DA/SA division, where Glock was allowed to play as an afterthought. The trigger does finish preloading the striker spring on the Glock- not sure on the XD?

IPSC does not consider the XD a single action if you look on the Production list you will find them list there.

From the IPSC Production list - P9, XD, XD(M) (except ported models), XDS45

Not Approved: XDM 5.25 Series - XD/XDM Production model, XD/XDM Custom Competition model

I stand corrected- IPSC has changed its mind. There are a number of threads on here (old ones) debating the topic, including some interesting thoughts on what DA is. An unturned SA CZ will typically exhibit some rearward hammer movement as the trigger is pulled- could that satisfy the old "DA" requirement? The limited rearward travel of a Glock striker seems to.

I wonder when, and why, it changed- perhaps they figured the 5 lb first pull requirement was adequate to keep the CZ pattern guns at the top of the heap.

Either way, it seems despite the differences in the rulebooks both bodies are operating under the general idea of someone in charge deciding on a list of approved guns.

They could almost create the same effect by calling it "non 19/2011 division". You have to give the other manufacturers somewhere they can play, right?

[d_striker]

The Glock is different as the striker is pulled further to the rear by the trigger bar. This does not happen with the M&P.

Depends who you talk to.

Can you answer the question as to whether or not the rearward travel of the Glock striker is necessary for primer detonation?