kurtm Posted February 3, 2005 Share Posted February 3, 2005 This on has bugged me for awhile, so I will throw it out here for thoughts. Durring the 3-gun Nationals, a friend of mine had a detonation while speed unloading. Now hold the thoughts on speed unloading, this just has to do with substitution. The gun that was FUBARED was a 6" hybrid comped, Ultima Dot sighted, 40 cal pistol with 170MM mags. After the " BOOM " It wouldn't run. We went to the match director to see if he could shoot My 6" .40 cal Fat Free LIMITED pistol in OPEN as a replacement. He said NO WAY!! the LIMITED gun would be a "DISTINCT ADVANTAGE" and if my friend shot it it was D.Q. city. We ended up switching compomnents between shooting ( what a pain ) and were threatened with a D.Q. for shooting different guns than we started with. How is switching a LIMITED GUN for an OPEN GUN of the same size and caliber wrong????? Enquirering mind would like to know!! KURTM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shred Posted February 3, 2005 Share Posted February 3, 2005 One worked and the other didn't? Seriously I don't see the advantage. I've even heard "switching to a hybrid gun from a non-hybrid is an advantage" from a major match MD. What's up with that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry White Posted February 3, 2005 Share Posted February 3, 2005 Kurt, I,m sure you know what the rules say, same cal. same type. and the relpacement has to meet the req. of the division. I know that your 6in meets the req. for open. There is a sentence about the same type of sights but it also addresses competive advantage. Damn sure was not a advantage to go from a dot to irons at that match. Just one more bone head call. To not allow that switch defies logic. Seems a cheap crap table and Miss Piggy(blondie) were about all Reno had to offer. Good trip, sh%$ty match. We have rms at econo lodge, see you in wichita falls.----Larry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronnie j Posted February 6, 2005 Share Posted February 6, 2005 In my level one RO class I was told that a change from and hicap .355 dot gun to a SS .45 iron sight compgun shouldn't / wouldn't be allowed , not due to caliber/ sight difference but due to competitive advantage on hoser stages . Everyone in the clas thought this guy was nuts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
diehli Posted February 7, 2005 Share Posted February 7, 2005 In my level one RO class I was told that a change from and hicap .355 dot gun to a SS .45 iron sight compgun shouldn't / wouldn't be allowed , not due to caliber/ sight difference but due to competitive advantage on hoser stages . Everyone in the clas thought this guy was nuts. That's ridiculous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Posted February 7, 2005 Share Posted February 7, 2005 Hey Kurt, it sounds like the rule book not only wasn’t thoroughly read, but that what was read wasn’t thoroughly understood either. That is one mighty bad call in my book. The rules are pretty straight forward and so is the concept of competitive advantage, you just ran into a big ass mis-interpretation and I thoroughly agree with you on this and on speed un-loading. -- Regards, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ima45dv8 Posted February 7, 2005 Share Posted February 7, 2005 In my level one RO class I was told that a change from and hicap .355 dot gun to a SS .45 iron sight compgun shouldn't / wouldn't be allowed , not due to caliber/ sight difference but due to competitive advantage on hoser stages . Everyone in the clas thought this guy was nuts. Amazing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sparky Posted February 8, 2005 Share Posted February 8, 2005 We all know that the rule that covers this is 5.1.7 and the sub catagory used was 5.1.7.2 "In using the substitute handgun the competitor will not gain a competitive advantage". In my opinion the RM should have allowed the use of the iron sighted gun as a substitute even though it does not have the same sighting system. Mainly because it would not have been a "competitive advantage". We have to use common sense in our decisions as RO's and apply the rules accordingly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XRe Posted February 8, 2005 Share Posted February 8, 2005 Well, given all that, Doug Koenig was allowed to switch from his jam-o-matic Wolf gas operated gun to TGO's backup 1911-ish Open gun (think it was the Springfield/Para frame?) during the '97 Open Nats. Completely different operating system, different mags, different scope, etc (oh, and it didn't jam). I fail to see how, if this is allowed, switching to a non-ported 6" .40 from a ported 6" .40 of the same frame type could be considered anything remotely like gaining an advantage Of course, it's also been said that switching from one dot module to another on your C-more during the match constitutes a distinct change in equipment, etc.... Perhaps it just shows that you're completely at the mercy of the MD.... which can be unfortunate.... EDITED - I say above it was TGO's backup gun - I should restate to I THINK it was TGO's backup gun. I saw TGO hand it over to Doug at the safe area from his bag, and assumed it was his backup gun.... unsure on exactly what frame type, though... Mighta misinterpreted what I saw that way.... Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted February 8, 2005 Share Posted February 8, 2005 I sure wish this rule would get tweaked. I think the idea behind it was to keep shooters from picking a heavy, stable gun for shooting a long-range, accuracy stage....then switching to a light gun to swing around on a stage with lots of transitions. ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robomanusa Posted February 8, 2005 Share Posted February 8, 2005 Having to switch guns in a local club match due to malfunction should be acceptable even if it involves having to shoot in another division, but not in a major match. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
driver8M3 Posted February 8, 2005 Share Posted February 8, 2005 Well, given all that, Doug Koenig was allowed to switch from his jam-o-matic Wolf gas operated gun to TGO's backup 1911-ish Open gun (think it was the Springfield/Para frame?) during the '97 Open Nats. is a constantly-jamming gun a valid reason to switch? how many jams before a gun is considered unserviceable? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robomanusa Posted February 8, 2005 Share Posted February 8, 2005 Well, given all that, Doug Koenig was allowed to switch from his jam-o-matic Wolf gas operated gun to TGO's backup 1911-ish Open gun (think it was the Springfield/Para frame?) during the '97 Open Nats. is a constantly-jamming gun a valid reason to switch? how many jams before a gun is considered unserviceable? gun jams to me are part of the game, I shoulda made my malfunction a little more clear... I shot ina club match a few months back where one of the shooters was using a 625 for revo and on his first or second stage the gun came apart on him losing some parts to the gun itself rendering it unuseable to finsih the match with. After asking the MD if he could switch since he brought a limited gun as well, he said sure but stages shot to that point will not be counted and the shooter was cool with that as he still got to do what he came to do(shoot and have a good time). Why should a shooter have to suffer after driving a long distance for justa local club match when everyone there is there to have a good time and shoot, no money or prizes involved, unlike major matches where your actually shooting for prize. To me what our MD done was just good ole plain sportmanship by letting him switch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XRe Posted February 8, 2005 Share Posted February 8, 2005 Well, given all that, Doug Koenig was allowed to switch from his jam-o-matic Wolf gas operated gun to TGO's backup 1911-ish Open gun (think it was the Springfield/Para frame?) during the '97 Open Nats. is a constantly-jamming gun a valid reason to switch? how many jams before a gun is considered unserviceable? I thought it odd, too - which is why it still sticks in my mind. I have it on video, and he's quite clearly shooting a different pistol with a different scope. I've often wondered exactly *what* happened with that situation, but have never had the chance to ask Doug, TGO, or Andy Hollar what happened. The only palatable reason for all of that that I've been able to formulate is that a jam-o-matic constitutes an unserviceable gun, and that all it takes to make an equivalent pistol is another Open gun. BTW - when I say "jam-o-matic", I mean a jam literally every 1-5 rounds. It was horrible - extremely painful to watch. He was basically shooting a bolt-action pistol.... Even so, IIRC, he still beat me in the match - he was at my prize table several shooters before me.... humbling for an B class shooter at his first major match.... Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ima45dv8 Posted February 11, 2005 Share Posted February 11, 2005 "We have to use common sense in our decisions as RO's and apply the rules accordingly." Words to live by. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mactiger Posted February 14, 2005 Share Posted February 14, 2005 This on has bugged me for awhile, so I will throw it out here for thoughts. Durring the 3-gun Nationals, a friend of mine had a detonation while speed unloading. Now hold the thoughts on speed unloading, this just has to do with substitution. The gun that was FUBARED was a 6" hybrid comped, Ultima Dot sighted, 40 cal pistol with 170MM mags. After the " BOOM " It wouldn't run. We went to the match director to see if he could shoot My 6" .40 cal Fat Free LIMITED pistol in OPEN as a replacement. He said NO WAY!! the LIMITED gun would be a "DISTINCT ADVANTAGE" and if my friend shot it it was D.Q. city. We ended up switching compomnents between shooting ( what a pain ) and were threatened with a D.Q. for shooting different guns than we started with. How is switching a LIMITED GUN for an OPEN GUN of the same size and caliber wrong????? Enquirering mind would like to know!! KURTM If you went to the MD, you went to the wrong person. The RM is the one who makes that decision. However, it does sound like a bad call to me. The key words, as have been pointed out, are "competitive advantage". The only sticking point is that the replacement gun is of the same caliber, since the competitor's ammo has to be chrono'd through the replacement gun. Of course, if there isn't a chronograph.... Troy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kurtm Posted February 14, 2005 Author Share Posted February 14, 2005 The gun we were trying to replace was quite a bit heavier, so that thought doesn't make much sense, but I can see the idea of it. The 40 ammo for the open pistol was quite a bit hotter, to help the comp work and we would have happily chronoed! RM didn't want to make the call so it was bumped up to the MD. We tried to show him the 2 pistols side by side but he wasn't interested. I think I will start shooting open now that I know a 6" fat free, non comped, iron sighted pistol is a distinct advantage. I bet the big dogs haven't caught on yet and I might sneek up on them KURTM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bear1142 Posted February 16, 2005 Share Posted February 16, 2005 Kurt, Knowing your disdain for USPSA 3-Gun National matches, I'm sorry your first foray back into it was such a disaster. Please don't let last years match be indicative of the level of quality of our matches. You and your loyal followers are very talented shooters and I look forward to the challenge of competing against you. Just so you don't think you were singled out, here's another incredible story from last years match. A friend of mine is legally blind in his left eye. On the stage where you had to go prone and shoot through both lower corner ports on the left and right side, my friend declared to the RO he was going to take a medical penalty because he was blind in his left eye. After the buzzer and the pistol shots, he went to lower right rifle port and engaged the targets. He got up and moved to the lower left port and got into a prone position. He then got back up and went back to the lower right port and reshot the targets. The RO contacted the RM to notify him of what happened for scoring purposes. The RM, for some unknown reason, contacted the MD. The MD found my friend and told him he needed to reshoot the stage. My friend informed him of the medical situation and how he declared ahead of time he was going to take a medical penalty. The MD refused to allow the medical and told him he would have to reshoot the stage. My friend refused and cited the rulebook. The MD told him if he didn't reshoot the stage, he would DQ him for unsportsmanlike conduct. Not wanting to be DQ'd my friend reshot the stage and took misses on all of the targets on the lower left. I'm still stunned at this level of incompetence at a Nationals level match. I will never shoot another match run by this MD. Erik Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted February 16, 2005 Share Posted February 16, 2005 Sounds like USPSA 3-gun has some growing to do...for sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricW Posted February 16, 2005 Share Posted February 16, 2005 Sounds like USPSA 3-gun has some growing to do...for sure. Actually, I think some particular *individuals* in the sport have some growing up to do. Mike Voigt, Bruce Gary, and the many dedicated individuals advising them on the development process all seem to have their heads screwed on straight. I don't know a single person that I respect that thinks this kind of nonsense is right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kurtm Posted February 16, 2005 Author Share Posted February 16, 2005 Bear1142: I ain't so egotistical as to think it was about me being singled out . I just see this kind of thing time and again when dealing with USPSA. Don't think they are the only ones either, part of the "mystery" in the Superstition Mountain Myster 3-Gun match is usually how the rules are interpreted by the Match staff KURTM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
richardschennberg Posted February 17, 2005 Share Posted February 17, 2005 Picking on the injured or disabled is unsportsmanslike! In this case the rulebook is clear. If the individual elected not to arbitrate, a third party could have filed the arbitration to keep the match officials honest. Richard http://www.schennberg.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benny hill Posted February 17, 2005 Share Posted February 17, 2005 unsportsmanship is putting some one in charge that has'nt got a clue of the rule book or common sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BSeevers Posted February 17, 2005 Share Posted February 17, 2005 Hmm I would have allowed a Limited gun sub for a Open gun. Uh that's a competitive Disadvantage Mr RO. On the medical procedural the rules weren't followed as far as I can see from the post. Before the "medical" shot the RM should have been called and according to the rule the shooter requests(another key point) that the RM assigns the penalty before the shooter shoots. So a reshoot is required since the shooter or RO do not get to "choose" their penalties. The RM assigns it. Unless the RO is the RM. Rule 10.2.11 Trust me I don't want to pick on a medical but if you are healthy enough to shoot the match aren't you healthy enough to re-shoot a stage?? It sounds like the RO messed up by not calling the RM so that's range equipment failure. How do you RO's like being called Range Equipment. I do believe that it sounds like the MD could have been a little nicer. Sorry you both had a bad time(I have had a few bad times too( but you are always welcome back to any match and I can vouch that this is a rare occurance. Bad calls aren't desired but they are part of competition, NFL,NBA or IPSC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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