Grip technique- thumb and weak hand placement

[phucheneh]

This should be pretty basic, and I think I already know the answers to my questions. But since those answers mean that I have been shooting handguns wrong for years, I figured I would seek a bit of advice before I continue to try and change my habits...and as I'm sure many would agree, altering something you've been doing for a long time can be hard.

I'm a pretty firm believer in doing what works...I've generally tried not to get too hung up on being exact and proper if what I'm doing is working and feels natural. But I think I've hit a wall with my distance accuracy, and forcing some changes seems necessary.

I'll share this picture first. Here's sustained fire at 25m. I was focusing on the front sight, trying to generally ignore the rear, and firing each successive shot as soon as I pulled my front sight back into the rear notch. Basically, stiff grip with a low recoil gun, and next round comes out as soon as I see both my 'light bars' return. I think that's a .100 front sight (.125 rear, ~5.5-6" sight radius), so the bars are pretty wide.

For an SD (and 'recreational') shooter, I'd say that's very acceptable. On a forum full of competition shooters...it's embarrassing. Here's the thing, though: If I slow down and take as much time as I want between shots...I generally can't group any tighter. Obviously I've gotta change something if I want to have any hope of getting those down/left shots up into the center box.

It's hard to get an accurate 'selfie' of my grip, but here's the best I could do-

I have always curled the dominant thumb. And what I suddenly realized is that the more precise and stable I try to be, the more I push that thumb into the side of the grip.

On my own evaluation alone (not worth much), I am trying to correct to this-

Zero thumb pressure is apparently a goal I should have been striving for a long time ago. This feels less natural. Almost counterintuitive...feels like the gun is less clamped down and side-to-side stability is compromised. But I think that's just in my head. Aside from the thumbs, the other big change is that my weak hand is shifted forward a lot- before, the first joint in those fingers (past the knuckle) would almost be pointing forward. Now, I'm getting closer to having that first section of finger being perpendicular to the bore. I am less certain about whether or not this is actually an improvement, but it seems to help prevent dropping the muzzle on trigger break.

Any advice/critiques you guys give would be greatly appreciated. As those who have been in the GP thread in the 'other pistols' forum might notice, I'm intent on acquiring an X-Calibur, and I'd like to do all I can to assure that the jump from a $400 gun to a $900 gun will not be made in vain.

Oh, a couple other possibly-relevant things: I shoot in a modified Weaver (if it's not technically 'Chapman,' it's close). I am 6'3 with very long arms and I simply have never been able to make iso work for me. I am cross-eye dominant (barely- more accurate to say neither of my eyes can focus worth a damn...) and tend to shoot with a rifle-esque 'cheek weld'.

Also, I recently switched backstraps on that gun from the factory CZ-style rounded one to the largest, more 1911-style. Again, the former feels natural and comfortable, but the latter seems to force me into a more fundamentally correct grip. I used to hold that pistol slightly off-axis in relation to my strong arm; now it's pointing directly down a straight wrist.

[Lior]

Your support hand can be higher up on the frame if you ride the safety with your dominant thumb. Part of your aim is to cover as much of the gun's grip as possible. Use thumb contact / pressure if you want. Feel free to curl the dominant thumb and use the support thumb's interphalangeal joint to contact / pressure the gun's frame.

There's more than one way of holding a gun right - YMMV.

[Nimitz]

It looks like you are pushing on the side of the gun with your weak hand? You need to develop a neutral grip so that you are not pushing or pulling in any direction with your hands since if you are pushing on the gun with your left thumb then to get a neutral grip you need to push on the right side of the gun. many competitive shooters, myself included , do not touch the gun at all with either thumb. They just lay alongside the gun but do not touch it. Also realize that consistent low left shots are caused by anticipating recoil, not necessarily a bad grip, although that does contribute to poor shooting. You also said 'continuous fire' ... what do you mean by that? Did you just shoot until you mag was empty then load up another rd & keep shooting? usually, in group shooting we'll just shoot a 5-6 shot group, check what's going on ... apply corrections and then shoot another group. No need to shoot a ton of rounds to see what's going on before you apply corrections.

Also, what are you goals in shooting? Are you just trying to learn to shoot accurately or are you interested in getting into or becoming better in the action sports? Makes a difference for recommending what you should do next ...

[phucheneh]

Well, I can tell you two thing I know I'm not doing:

Not pushing on the side of the gun- in the second grip pic, at least. That's definitely what I'm trying to correct. The pressure in my right hand is mostly at the web and the upper part of my palm, trying to keep from dipping the muzzle when the trigger breaks. I've noticed I often shoot more accurately in double action, and surmised that it is because I am focusing on keeping the gun totally steady as the hammer comes back, and by the time I get to the break, I've really gotten that whole 'neutral grip' thing down pretty well. The short, clean SA trigger on this gun may actually be hindering me- you don't exactly have much time to focus on a slow, steady squeeze...once you start putting pressure on the trigger, it snaps and then immediately stops. The pressure from my week hand is all on the front strap. The only side pressure was where I was previously pushing with my thumbs (probably with increasing severity as I ran through a mag)...that's gone when I position my hands as in the latter photo.

Not anticipating recoil. I've shot a lot, I can shoot competently (i.e. hit center mass) at pretty high speeds, and 9mm automatics are pretty benign to me. There may be anticipation for the trigger break, but not for the recoil. Maybe I'm splitting hairs, I dunno- just want to be precise with my language here.

By continuous shooting, I mean draining the mag without any real thought. Shoot as fast as I can while still being in control and on-target.

I guess I'm a believer in the law of averages. The reason for that number of rounds on one target was simply to get a broad picture. It's not as if I gradually got more inaccurate over time- it's all random. And that's my issue with trying to base evaluations off of small groups- it's simply not a large enough sample to draw any meaningful conclusion. At 25m, I've put 5 shots into a 3" circle on multiple occasions. Around a bulleye, at that. But then I follow it up with a 15" group. Or two or three rounds right on target with a couple BAD outliers in totally different positions. Ect. I just don't see how I can draw any conclusions from that...it's not as if I can shoot one phenomenal group and then just say 'well, I guess I'm perfect now! All I have to do, is whatever I just did. All the time.'

Please don't think that I'm not grateful for anyone's input- just want to clarify my situation. I shot sixty rounds at that target (6 mags of 10) and managed to put 59 holes in it...with no apparent pattern. Each mag probably had the same percentage of '0' shots, happening at totally different places in the mag. The sight elevation is good (25m is my zero), and the windage was definitely close- I believe they were just a tiny bit left. I've done a bit of double-checking with a boresight and given my rear sight a very slight bump to the right. So my biggest problem can simply be described as 'inconsistency' with a nod towards 'shooting low.' I'll be doing to the range tomorrow, and will be able to report if anything has changed.

[grapemeister]

Here is a good video on the grip. I don't think your problem in regards to accuracy has anything to do with your grip, but one thing at a time.

Edited December 15, 2014 by grapemeister

[G-ManBart]

That is almost entirely a trigger press issue. I'd get a copy of Ben Stoeger's book Practical Pistol, and it has a good section on trigger control (self-promotion as I wrote part of it) and grip, along with all the other fundamentals.

[Bart Solo]

When shooting a large caliber automatic fast a strong grip is important to control recoil. You can get back on the sights for a second shot faster if the muzzle rise is shorter and controlled. If you are shooting a pistol with minmal recoil or if you don't want to shoot fast you can get away with just about any grip. I know I have been doing it for years shooting minimal loaded 38 specials out of Ruger Vaqueros. Basically I have been shooting one handed using the weak hand to cock the hammer. That is the fastest way I have found to handle a single action revolver. I am still going to shoot that way in CAS, but shooting an automatic in a major caliber is a different game. Your strong hand has to pull the trigger. Trigger control is made more difficult if you are squeezing your strong hand too hard. Since trigger control is king that means the strength in the grip has to come from the weak hand. I think Jerry Miculek's video on the subject is more instructive than Shannon Smith's above although it is pretty good. The key is find a grip that works for you and can be repeated quickly and easily. Every hand is different. What works for Smith might not work for you.

I really like Miculek's concept of removing everything that doesn't add to your speed. I think Brian Enos preaches the same idea. Be a minimalist.

[phucheneh]

An update:

I went to the range once or twice with the P1 (only; I have a bad habit of taking more than one gun with me when I should really pick one and focus on it), and acquired an X-Cal. I have made one brief range trip with it.

I tried the thumbs-off grip on the P1, focusing on gripping less intensely and getting a good trigger pull. It was...worse. About the same consistency (or lack thereof) but with more pulling to the side. I reverted to the thumbs-curled grip while still trying to focus on the trigger, and was rewarded with slightly better performance. I dunno; everything seems to say tucking the thumbs is bad, but I have always been very steady with my lateral movement; when I try to shoot real groups, they are always much taller than they are wide.

Picked up the X-Cal and learned that the people who said it was all trigger pull seem to have been correct. I am simply not good enough to be able to see much difference from the longer barrel and increased sight radius. At least, not at a distance...I did notice I can bullseye a target at 10m a lot more easily than I've ever been able to...but at 25m, I still shoot watermelon-sized groups. The thing is, they are now an even spread of shots actually centered on the '0' circle of that IPDA target. Nothing outside the -1. And it all seems to really be due to a lack of movement during trigger pull/break.

[alma]

Read this: http://grayguns.com/dry-fire-secrets-of-the-pros/

[texasref]

One thing you did not mention is how long you've been shooting, or maybe I just missed that. When I first started shooting pistol, my thought was "How hard can it be to hit something 7 yds away"? It's harder than I thought.

So if you just started it's really more a matter of practice than anything else. That being said, there are some things that all top shooters do. A common thread if you will. Do some research and find out what those things are. Practice them, and you'll find what works for you and what doesn't.

A very good shooter told me the main thing is sending rounds downrange. Another told me not to discount aiming at small circles a lot in order to be better at hitting larger targets faster.

I'm a little off topic. Thing is, check around. Try out stuff that sounds right to you and if they work great. If not....well.

The key is to do the same thing every time. Only then can you truly judge yourself. No one does exactly the same thing someone else does.

Oh, by the way. Bring that target in. Its great to be able to shoot 25m. but you'll really do better at shorter distances first.

[Rob1125]

If you are working for accuracy, refine your point of aim. Each hole in the target you posted only tells us one thing, where the gun was pointed when it went off. Put a smaller aiming point in the target. If you look at the target as a whole, you will hit the whole target. By using a smaller target, you may not hit the target, but you will hit much closer to the aiming point.

If I am trying to shoot the tightest group I can at distance, I focus primarily on the front sight while keeping my consistent point of aim. For a double action first shot, press the trigger straight to the rear. Watch for any movement of the front sight. Maintain that focus on the front sight throughout the trigger press.

One of the problems beginning shooters make, is they line up their sights and pull the trigger as fast as they can, trying to make the gun fire before the sights move. This is seldom, if ever, possible for the average beginning shooter.

Another problem is raising the head as the shot breaks. This is done because everyone wants to see the bullet hit the target. This disturbs the relationship of the sights and the target begins to look like a shotgun.

I like to dry practice for accuracy with just a blank wall in front of me. This allows me to focus solely on the front sight as I make my trigger press. I watch the sight for any disturbance in the alignment.

I like to start newer shooters off firing groups at closer distance. We work on their fundamentals until we see actual groups. Only then do I increase the distance. Everyone wants to go fast, but if you can't hit your target it does you no good.

I hope this helps.

[Toyotafrank]

Here is a good video on the grip. I don't think your problem in regards to accuracy has anything to do with your grip, but one thing at a time.http://youtu.be/KJrA7wMXuuQ

Well done video.