bdpaz Posted December 11, 2014 Share Posted December 11, 2014 As mentioned in the Limited 6 thread it is almost impossible to make stages that are truly 6 shot neutral. It means shots limited on paper, no steel and manditory reloads between positions to eliminate carrying rounds. I would like to accept the differences and just have stages that are fun and challenging for either capacity. One option is to request a rule change from "6 shot neutral" to "6 shot friendly" and I would like to know if any of you like the idea. I am also looking for suggestions on how to simply and easily define 6 shot friendly. "No more than 6 shots required from a single position", "Can not require 7 or 8 shots from a single position", "Can be shot in a logical manner with 6 shot guns", ... What do you think??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnRodriguez Posted December 12, 2014 Share Posted December 12, 2014 ICORE stages are always set up to be 5 plates, or 3 paper targets, and if a paper steel combo, then 2 papers, 1 steel so you can have 1 extra shot for all shooting positions. You will never see a port or position where there will be 4 targets and be forced to do a standing reload with a six shot. ICORE is already set up for a six shot to finish High on the list. Angus Hobdell won limitied with a 625 several years ago and Mike Carmoney finished quite high when he shot with a 625 also. I'm sure Mike can chime in with his finishing position was. The only place a 8 shot has a advantage over a 6 is during a steel stage where you have 3 make up shots and a 6 only has one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bdpaz Posted December 12, 2014 Author Share Posted December 12, 2014 ICORE stages are always set up to be 5 plates, or 3 paper targets... These are good examples. How is the 5 plate rack "neutral" when the 6 shot guy has only one extra while the guy with an 8 shot gun has three? It is fun and "doable" with a 6 shot gun but it doesn't mean that there isn't an advantage to having two more shots. And for three paper targets the 8 shooter has the option of make up shots without reloading while the 6 shooter does not. And if a 6 shot gun has a clicker on a 6 shot array it requires a reload while it just means pull the trigger again on an 8 shot. I think changing the wording of the rule will really just make the rule match what is commonly going on and eliminate the weird artificial restrictions when someone does try to make a stage 6 shot neutral. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisC Posted December 12, 2014 Share Posted December 12, 2014 If you move your feet you change position.... Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reuel_f_emery Posted December 12, 2014 Share Posted December 12, 2014 9 - 12 shots required from one position... is 6 shot neutral...Everyone has to reload.. 8 has no great advantage no problem for 6 gun folks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve H Posted December 12, 2014 Share Posted December 12, 2014 Last Spring I took over one or our local ICORE clubs, and bringing a USPSA match director background with me, I have really tried to set up stages that are both challenging, fun, and 6,7, and 8 shot neutral.....I really think that stage design is the key.....I usually have one steel stage, one classifier, and two "field courses"....on the field courses, I try to make it that the 6 shot shooter is not totally screwed, but also set it up that the 8 shooter may be able to shoot additional targets.....one of the big things I like about ICORE is that it doesn't force me to set up stages a certain way! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PatJones Posted December 12, 2014 Share Posted December 12, 2014 ICORE stages are always set up to be 5 plates, or 3 paper targets, and if a paper steel combo, then 2 papers, 1 steel so you can have 1 extra shot for all shooting positions. You will never see a port or position where there will be 4 targets and be forced to do a standing reload with a six shot. Huh? 9 - 12 shots required from one position... is 6 shot neutral...Everyone has to reload.. This is 6 shot neutral, though in general I would avoid 6 and 12 shot arrays with steel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bdpaz Posted December 12, 2014 Author Share Posted December 12, 2014 9 - 12 shots required from one position... is 6 shot neutral...Everyone has to reload.. 8 has no great advantage no problem for 6 gun folks. Last Spring I took over one or our local ICORE clubs, and bringing a USPSA match director background with me, I have really tried to set up stages that are both challenging, fun, and 6,7, and 8 shot neutral.....I really think that stage design is the key.....I usually have one steel stage, one classifier, and two "field courses"....on the field courses, I try to make it that the 6 shot shooter is not totally screwed, but also set it up that the 8 shooter may be able to shoot additional targets.....one of the big things I like about ICORE is that it doesn't force me to set up stages a certain way! My point is that I want stages designed with this mind set but, based on stages I've shot, some don't believe that this is what 6 shot neutral means. Apparently any advantage to the 8 shot must be crushed so we get things like three shooting boxes with a 9-shot array at each with a mandatory reload between them so every one has standing reloads and is dumping rounds between positions. Crushing any 8 shot advantage also crushes the fun so the stages are bad for everyone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carmoney Posted December 12, 2014 Share Posted December 12, 2014 I agree. And I think it's very possible to design good, fun, challenging stages that can be shot equally well with a 8-shot or a 6-shot gun, without creating a robotic obedience to nothing but 6-shot paper arrays (5 shots on steel). At our Midwest Regional last year, I managed to put together some good field courses that didn't screw the 6-shot guys, but still left some options. That said, I must admit there was one stage where I screwed up and left one target available from a second location where it allowed the 8-shot guys to avoid running 6-8 steps to finish the course of fire. That was a mistake I should have caught and corrected during the pre-match de-bugging process. It does take effort to honor the spirit of 6-shot neutral while preserving some freestyle aspect. But it can be done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisC Posted December 13, 2014 Share Posted December 13, 2014 Mike do you still have the PDF of the stages from last years match? I'm thinking about starting a database. Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bubber Posted December 13, 2014 Share Posted December 13, 2014 Whether you call it Friendly or Neutral, it makes no difference. It is still up to the match director to get it right. Roger D. Davis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carmoney Posted December 13, 2014 Share Posted December 13, 2014 Mike do you still have the PDF of the stages from last years match? I'm thinking about starting a database. Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk Here you go, Chris: http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=187983&page=2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisC Posted December 14, 2014 Share Posted December 14, 2014 (edited) Thanks Mike Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk Edited December 14, 2014 by ChrisC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
afoulk Posted December 14, 2014 Share Posted December 14, 2014 What 6 shot neutrality seems to demand, and why it seems cumbersome to me, is that designers work out the optimal stage plan for each capacity (and ability, but let's not get into that) and determine that they are either equivalent or at least close. When stages have real options, one really needs to work out whether the options give a distinct advantage to larger capacity guns. Stage designers are simply not going to see everything that the competitors see and get this right every time. In this sense, the USPSA rule of no more than 8 shots per view is a much lower standard to meet, especially with the most recent re-definition of view, making stages easier to design within the rules. The USPSA designer doesn't have to care about true 8/10 shot neutrality. ICORE stage designers really can't leave any "unknowns" and meet the standard. I'd like to see 6 shot neutrality recommended at the local match level rather than required to allow local matches to piggyback on the matches of other disciplines (USPSA, obviously) or recycle stage designs without really modifying the course of fire in any way, other than replacing the targets with D1 targets and changing out the classifier. Granted, one can already do this, as there is little consequence from ICORE for breaking the neutrality rule (or for that matter, any other rule). Where it would be helpful is in keeping potential customers happy when well meaning stage designers make mistakes. If the match grows to the point where it can become independent, the match should choose to make stages 6 shot neutral to the best of their ability. At the sanctioned match level, I'm fine with requiring at least a good faith attempt at keeping the COF 6 shot neutral. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisC Posted December 15, 2014 Share Posted December 15, 2014 (edited) Who's going to tell on you if you did it at at local match. Maybe total required rounds for a stage needs to be divisible by 6? The 6 shot neutral rule is to make it fair to the guy that brings out the 6 shot limited gun. Really wouldn't matter with classic as they are playing against themselves anyway. I have shot 10 different major ICORE matches in my short time as a revolver shooter. 6 shot neutral isn't that hard. Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk Edited December 15, 2014 by ChrisC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cd662 Posted December 15, 2014 Share Posted December 15, 2014 I don't understand how this is such a problem right now. Every winter, it's like there has to be some sort of dramatic thing to discuss on the internet. I think people get stir crazy. I don't think a stage round count should have to be divided by 6. The only real thing is that the stage shouldn't be remarkably difficult for 6 shooters to shoot; that is, you shouldn't have some sort of crazy memory stage, for example, that is logical for an 8 shot gun but extremely complex for a 6. While all the Classic guys are competing against each other, it would dissuade people from wanting to shoot Classic even more. ICORE needs to try to expand the divisions and Classic is the weakest, which is why I have strong doubts about a moon clip 6 shot division magically taking off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jhgtyre Posted December 15, 2014 Share Posted December 15, 2014 I don't understand how this is such a problem right now. Every winter, it's like there has to be some sort of dramatic thing to discuss on the internet. I think people get stir crazy. I don't think a stage round count should have to be divided by 6. The only real thing is that the stage shouldn't be remarkably difficult for 6 shooters to shoot; that is, you shouldn't have some sort of crazy memory stage, for example, that is logical for an 8 shot gun but extremely complex for a 6. While all the Classic guys are competing against each other, it would dissuade people from wanting to shoot Classic even more. ICORE needs to try to expand the divisions and Classic is the weakest, which is why I have strong doubts about a moon clip 6 shot division magically taking off. The OP lives in Arizona and we don't have a winter slow down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bdpaz Posted December 16, 2014 Author Share Posted December 16, 2014 I don't understand how this is such a problem right now. Every winter, it's like there has to be some sort of dramatic thing to discuss on the internet. I think people get stir crazy. I don't think a stage round count should have to be divided by 6. The only real thing is that the stage shouldn't be remarkably difficult for 6 shooters to shoot; that is, you shouldn't have some sort of crazy memory stage, for example, that is logical for an 8 shot gun but extremely complex for a 6. While all the Classic guys are competing against each other, it would dissuade people from wanting to shoot Classic even more. ICORE needs to try to expand the divisions and Classic is the weakest, which is why I have strong doubts about a moon clip 6 shot division magically taking off. The OP lives in Arizona and we don't have a winter slow down. But don't think that it doesn't get cold. I had a long sleeve shirt on for the entire match Saturday morning. And as a side note, for Classic shooters we had 8 out 17 Saturday and 6 out of 35 the previous Sunday so Classic isn't weak here. What 6 shot neutrality seems to demand, and why it seems cumbersome to me, is that designers work out the optimal stage plan for each capacity (and ability, but let's not get into that) and determine that they are either equivalent or at least close. When stages have real options, one really needs to work out whether the options give a distinct advantage to larger capacity guns. Stage designers are simply not going to see everything that the competitors see and get this right every time. In this sense, the USPSA rule of no more than 8 shots per view is a much lower standard to meet, especially with the most recent re-definition of view, making stages easier to design within the rules. The USPSA designer doesn't have to care about true 8/10 shot neutrality. ICORE stage designers really can't leave any "unknowns" and meet the standard. This is how I read "6 shot neutral" and also the problem I have with it. But most here seem to interpret it as something along the lines of "reasonable to shoot with 6 shot gun" so maybe the stages of shoot-a-few-targets-eleventy-twelve-times aren't widespread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackSabbath Posted January 21, 2015 Share Posted January 21, 2015 Could someone post a link for the rule about "six-shot neutral" for course design? Thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackSabbath Posted January 21, 2015 Share Posted January 21, 2015 Found it... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NV Guide Posted February 1, 2015 Share Posted February 1, 2015 To me it isn't that you can't design good stages that comply with the rule. It's allowing more freedom in stage design. We shoot ICORE on Saturday and USPSA on Sunday using the same basic stages. Adjust target count and layout according to the rules of the day. We usually have about 20 shooters with one or two six shooters. They are the ones who will "tell" (complain). We want all competitors to feel welcome. The only way to really make this work is to first establish a class for six shot limited then do away with six shot neutral. Without this there will always be some advantage to 8 shot unless you employ funky stage rules Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PatJones Posted February 2, 2015 Share Posted February 2, 2015 More ammo is easier. It's that way in USPSA too, there's no way around it. If someone builds a 10 shot 32 mag then all of the 8 shooters will whine too. If you shoot clean you can win with a 6 shooter, it's just not as easy. I say leave the rules alone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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