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Why do people start out with a Sig P226 but you don't find many in


daves_not_here

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I happen to like P226's and consider them fine guns, but have never considered them for competition.

This isn't really directed at Dave, but more in response to how many times in this thread people have said variations on "a great work gun, not a great game gun"

....other than aftermarket parts/mods etc, I'm trying to understand (for Production purposes) what would make a particular gun model great for "work" but not Production division.

Personally for me, I don't like Sigs because the grip and I don't get along at all. Perfectly reliable guns from what I hear, though the price is significant from what I see (especially when compared to less-costly guns that have the same level of reliability).

I guess I'm just not understanding what criteria would make a gun "great" for work purposes but not good for competition. (Again, other than the aftermarket parts or mods available.)

I mean---buy a Glock, polish the connector and throw a minus connector in there plus some good sights, and you are perfectly good to go with a holster and some mags in Production. That exact same level of mods are available (costlier, but available) for Sigs---but you don't see them even at local levels.

So what still makes them great for work but not great for competition on a local level?

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I shoot a Sig 226. I also have several complete top ends for it. 9MM for production, Magnaported 357SIG for carry, 40 S&W for L10, and now a lightened slide for L10 and carry. (I will post pics as soon as it gets back for refinishing at Sig) I think the lighter slide will make a huge difference for me.

I shoot Sigs because I carry Sigs. (several of them) With various physical limitations, I am not competitive so I shoot competition with a carry gun for trigger time.

My frames are set up the same. Short trigger, short reset, factory tuned action (They straightened out a Grey hack job) right side mag release, and aluminum or G10 grips. One set of grips were coated by Jim Shanahan. The coating is aggressive and great for me and fit me great. The smaller size of the aluminum grips make them perfect for the coating.

I run different sights for different applications but my favorite is wide cut black rear with Tritium fiber optic front.

For me, the Sig platform is very good. A friend with Homeland Security is a Master class shooter and uses a Sig also. Practice can overcome any perceived problems and a setting the gun up right makes a difference.

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One big factor I left out, and this is probably the biggest factor, none of the cool kids are shooting one. A few years back anyone shooting a DA/SA gun was told that their gun was holding them back and they could never be competitive unless they switched to a striker fired gun like the champ shot, then Ben showed up with his Beretta and then a Tangfolio and now you are basically told you cant compete unless you get yourself a heavy DA/SA gun. the sad truth is anything that can be made to have a half decent trigger that will shoot a half decent group that you can get sights you like on, will be just about as competitive as anything else, if you practice with it, but that is not near as much fun as using performance as a excuse to purchase a new gun.

edited for typos

Edited by bikerburgess
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None of the cool kids shoot these, eh? Wouldn't Max qualify as one of the cool kids as he is the Captain of Team Sig? Typically he shoots one of their 1911's or one of his STIGS Open guns (sti frame/grip,sig slide) but he does have them and has done well with them when he has shot them. I know this because I insure them for Max. Matt Cheely and Eric Lund both used to shoot for Sig and Bruce Gray has been associated with them for many years. Didn't Angi Kelly use one to win the ladies Production title back in 04 or 05? James (Tarr Baby) Tarr, GM writer for Handguns magazine carry's a SIG for half the year typically and G34 the other half. We talk about the differences all the time. Many of the comments here have hit on the reasons (cost, different trigger set ups, less parts availability from other mfgs, grip/bore axis ect...) as to why they are not as popular. However, Sig came out last year with a 226 Single Action Only version. It was sent to Tarr as a T&E piece. We had so much fun with it and it was so scary accurate, Tarr bought it. Please understand that Jim is one of the more frugal individuals that you will ever meet, so for him to put out his own $$ for this speaks volumes. The opening of the magazine well needs some work to open it up (permitted by USPSA) but other than that (maybe different sights to please the competitor), it runs out of the box. If your looking to shoot something different, maybe you might want to try one of these. I typically use a G34 or one of my Sig 226's (old ones made in West Germany) when I shoot production. I am up to 80% with them and looking to make M with them. I even tried to see if I could shoot a Beretta 92FS last month in the cold (not very successful.....but it was fun). Maybe because they are so boxy and workman like in appearance they don't get as much love as some others out there but they work and they are accurate. Obviously not what I typically like to drive....(SV 1911's.....) but its surprised me to see so much displeasure from other shooters. Always interesting to hear what others have to say........

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My point was that while Max does shoot for Sig he is not out winning PRODUCTION division championships with one, if he decided to shoot production and finished regularly in the top 5 at nationals with one (I think he could) then you would see a bunch of guys wanting to shoot one in production as well.

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By work gun it is built to work for a long time with low maintenance, is resistant to weather, is consistent in action, has an acceptable stock trigger, decent night sights, good holsters for whatever duty you're pulling and people who know how to service them.

In the same way a Camry makes a good car for commuting it is not a good car for autocrossing, even within the class it would be in. Both my sigs had springs, SRS and sights. They just didn't draw, reload and work the trigger in a way that helped me succeed relative to the effort put into them.

My competition gun gets more tunning, more spare parts, more cleaning, more maintenance. But it requires it whereas a "work" gun does not.

To continue in the car analogy it is easier for me to make my Porsche a daily driver than it is to make my Camry a track day car. Good at a specific task often doesn't work in both directions.

We chase things we feel will make a difference of 0.01 of a second! And spend lots of time and money doing so. If Sigs were an easy gun to do that with, they would be more popular. As I said, if they were good comp guns then we wouldn't be asking this because it would be evident they are. They have been around long enough and sold enough to have been discovered already, if they were a hidden secret they way Tangofos seemed to be, jsut waiting to be discovered.

Having a gun you can shoot fast and accurate is nice (Sig) but having a different gun; one you can shoot as fast and accurate as possible and be better in both these metrics with less work is what makes that gun a better game gun.

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I can't speak for the US but can speak to the experience in my country (Australia).

They are not popular in production at all. production here is dominated by CZ shadows and glocks. next in line would be tanfoglio stock II or stock III and M&Ps and others.

Here you can buy a CZ shadow for around $1100 USD inc 4 mags. a stock III around $1300 USD also with 4 mags.

A sig P226 X5 all round costs over $2000 here with 2 mags. extra mags are very expensive.

The only parts options are factory sig parts which are also expensive. Here even getting something like a different recoil spring is a hassle and in IPSC rules even springs must be made/sold by the gun manufacturer (ie can only use sig sold springs). For a CZ or a glock it's a piece of cake and you have heaps of options from the factory. and they're cheap too.

basically no one other than sig makes grips for them.

they do have a large slide and a slightly higher bore axis than say a shadow (I agree the high bore axis thing is a bit overplayed but it does exist).

The DA/SA trigger is not nearly as nice as a shadow or tanfog.

Having said all that, the quality of the german made sigs is out of this world. The machining and finishing is so nice. Given how well they are fitted it's an inherently accurate platform too.

There is only one guy I know local to me shooting on in production and he shoots it very well. It's a beatiful looking thing too.

So to sum up. Why don't we see more in production?

Price

lack of parts options

lack of gunsmith support

high bore axis (maybe)

grip does not suit a lot of people

None of the top guys are shooting one

The fact is there are more suitable options out there for much less money.

lovely looking gun though....

226x5e-9-ar.jpg

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IIRC, Dave Olhasso made GM in Production shooting a Sig, about 13-14 years ago. Clearly it's possible. There's definitely a perception that other guns are easier -- for a while it was Glocks, then M&Ps, now it seems to be swinging back toward DA/SA guns......

Realistically any of them can help you win, if you commit to one and practice -- and if that particular platform doesn't totally conflict with your mind.....

For me, the Glock is that natural platform, much like i strongly prefer Canon cameras to Nikons. Doesn't mean I couldn't make good images with Nikons -- but everything is laid out funky, and doesn't work easily on Nikon bodies. My brain intuitively understands the Canon interface. It's that simple and that complicated....

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I know it's not so important in uspsa, but for idpa look at where the slide release is on a Sig relative to other guns. Have fun hitting the decocker instead of the slide stop release.

And have fun working on the trigger yourself.

But anyways, they are not bad goods. There just happens to be other choices that for a myriad of small and not so small reasons make them better. But again, when hundredths of a second matter, so does every little small thing related to it.

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I am a huge Sig fan and when my wife and I started in USPSA we shot production with a P226 and P229. I think most are afraid of the DA first shot, but was never a determent to us. From there we went on to Les Baer for SS and now shoot Open but I would not hesitate to use my P226 in production once again. I always like the weight of the Sig in my hand and have a preference for metal framed guns with hammers.

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By work gun it is built to work for a long time with low maintenance, is resistant to weather, is consistent in action, has an acceptable stock trigger, decent night sights, good holsters for whatever duty you're pulling and people who know how to service them.

I completely get that. Makes sense.

In the same way a Camry makes a good car for commuting it is not a good car for autocrossing, even within the class it would be in. Both my sigs had springs, SRS and sights. They just didn't draw, reload and work the trigger in a way that helped me succeed relative to the effort put into them.

My competition gun gets more tunning, more spare parts, more cleaning, more maintenance. But it requires it whereas a "work" gun does not.

It is the last comment there that makes little sense to me, if we are talking about the most common guns in Production today. Sure, there are CZs and Tanfoglios that are maintenance-intensive. However, the majority of folks in Production are shooting Glocks, M&Ps, and XDs of various sorts. And I don't think those guns require more spare parts, cleaning, and maintenance than Sigs.

I'd say that the vast majority of guns shot by Production shooters are equally decent work guns as they are competition guns. The OP's question wasn't really "why aren't the top shooters shooting Sigs" but instead "why aren't more people shooting Sigs"--and all else being fairly equal for the majority of guns in Production, it just interested me that so many people said "work gun, but not competition gun" for Sig when most of the other guns used in Production apparently work completely well for both.

....which is probably the reason why many people don't shoot Sigs in competition, if they don't work well for both.

Unfortunately, that doesn't tell me what the actual difference is---what aspects of a "competition gun" exist that don't for a "work gun"? What is missing on a Sig that isn't also missing on Glocks, M&Ps and XDs, as people normally shoot them in Production?

Again, most people who shoot Production stick with standard stock guns, maybe changing out springs, trigger, and sights, the same of which are also possible for a Sig. We aren't talking the high-end, top-of-the-line competition-only Production models, because most USPSA shooters don't use those in Production.

If all else was equal, there would be as many Sigs in Production as there are Glocks, M&Ps, and XDs. So what isn't equal?

(In general, I think that price is what makes the majority of the difference. People have listed other very good reasons, too, and I think those do make a difference---but I think the major difference is that you can get a Glock 34 for $600, and a Sig is $800-900.)

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Unfortunately, that doesn't tell me what the actual difference is---what aspects of a "competition gun" exist that don't for a "work gun"? What is missing on a Sig that isn't also missing on Glocks, M&Ps and XDs, as people normally shoot them in Production?

Again, most people who shoot Production stick with standard stock guns, maybe changing out springs, trigger, and sights, the same of which are also possible for a Sig. We aren't talking the high-end, top-of-the-line competition-only Production models, because most USPSA shooters don't use those in Production.

If all else was equal, there would be as many Sigs in Production as there are Glocks, M&Ps, and XDs. So what isn't equal?

I think you may have found it for me.

Basically in production division we have 2 classes of guns that people actually use, the first and largest is striker fired polymer guns, the second is heavy framed DA/SA guns.

the Polymer guns are relatively easy to shoot and work on with tons of drop in parts to tinker with and are relatively affordable.

the Heavy DA/SA guns are harder to work on and a little more intimidating to shoot (many shooters just don't believe they can shoot a DA trigger well even for one shot a stage) and relatively expensive.

the Sigs really don't fall into either of these categories, they are not as good a pure game gun as a SP01 or a Tanfoglio and they aren't as simple as a GLOCK, XD or M+P. and they cost more than the polymer guns. You basically get the worst of both worlds.

That said I still don't think they are any worse than anything else that goes bang when you pull the trigger, and the ones I have shot handled and shot great.if you are not winning with a SIG changing to something else will probably not change that.

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Well I'm one of those people who has multiple SP01 Shadows built just for the games. My Glock 34s, 41, 21sf and 19 have sat in the safe for the past year unless I let someone borrow them. So when you look at my opinions, and that's all they are, you know where some of them come from.

I also shoot 1,000 rounds per week. Week after week after week. This extremely high rate of usage also colors my opinion as well. I'm into my 5th CZ in the past 12 months.

The very first gun I shot at any sort of pistol match was a da/sa 9mm Sig. I also had a 220R I'd built up as much as possible as well for use in idpa CDP.. I bought my mom a Sig Pro 2022 for her first semi auto. So I'm not totally unfamiliar with that platform.

Again, just my opinion from my experience.

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I even tried to see if I could shoot a Beretta 92FS last month in the cold (not very successful.....but it was fun). Maybe because they are so boxy and workman like in appearance they don't get as much love as some others out there but they work and they are accurate. Obviously not what I typically like to drive....(SV 1911's.....) but its surprised me to see so much displeasure from other shooters. Always interesting to hear what others have to say........

Yeah, well, I was driving a Glock 34 and minding my own business until you Team Blue guys corrupted me. So I've got the SV 1911 coming so I can start doing USPSA Single Stack.

I'm leaning towards moving over to a CZ for Production at some point, but I've got the Florida State Championship coming up and if the SV doesn't show up next couple weeks, I'll shoot that Production. I sent my Beretta 92FS off to Dave Olhasso awhile back to work some magic on the trigger and I'm very happy with what i got back. The Beretta is my baby since i went through the police academy with it and onto patrol back a couple lifetimes ago when I was on the job.

The only thing that I wish I could swap out on the 92FS was putting a fiber optic sight on it, but it performed well for me in the one Production match I've shot with it since getting it back from Dave.

Edited by ericjhuber
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This is an interesting topic for me, largely because of the degree of relatively uninformed speculation alloyed with false assumptions that the "Why don't we see more SIG's in Production?" question always prompts.

That's not meant as a slam. I don't blame anyone for voicing those assumptions and speculative theories, since in fact there aren't that many people with informed opinions on the successful use of P-Series SIG pistols in competition to draw more realistic conclusions from.

With full disclosure of my long association with SIG Sauer, and as president of Grayguns Inc., I'd like to offer some of my admittedly biased experience and opinions.

First, while nobody would consider me to have been any sort of really great Production shooter, I did manage to win and place in a surprising number of the larger matches I shot when I was SIGARMS' factory shooter boy from late 2002 through mid-2005 when I was forced by health issues to retire from competition. I think that included a few wins in some Area and section-level matches, and high finishes in much else I shot. As I have always pretty much sucked at speed shooting compared to my peers and betters, I could be coy and tell you I was just really lucky that better shooters weren't there when I won. However, the fact is that this wasn't always the case, and through hard work and some fortuitous late-career personal understandings, I learned to drive the DA/SA SIG as well or better than the 1911-based pistols that came before.

That facility persisted even as I walked away from competition in 2005 with a final last, very sad look over my shoulder. When I went back to the Bianchi Cup in 2011 and 2012 with a DA/SA X5 AllRound, I shot Production scores that rivaled or beat the best I put up in my youth with 1911 or HK, and set a couple new records for Enoch and Rob to break. :devil:

That concludes my ego's happy excursion into old, forgotten triumphs. Let it simply be said that I took a lot of negative comments about "high bore axis" and "the lousy SIG trigger" from a lot of shooters I beat, but only a few such comments from the real greats that bested me, and who generally knew better. Fact is, if a higher bore axis alone is an impassible barrier to competitiveness, then 1911's and many other platforms also are impossible to win with. And, at the risk of shameless self-promotion I'll put a properly built SIG competition action against ANYTHING else. Period.

Let it be said that in the hundreds of thousands of rounds we've fired from P-Series pistols by now (in addition to the training and competition I've done with them, we are the world's largest shop for SIG custom and R&D work by far, and test everything we touch thoroughly), I have yet to suffer a major failure with one. We go a year or two between even seeing any sort of malfunctions at all, much less any sort of small parts breakages. My personal P226 that I shot on behalf of SIGARMS with, s/n 489XXX, has in excess of 65,000 rounds on it and still runs perfectly. I broke exactly one hammer reset spring so far.

A typical P226 can be counted upon to group well inside 2" / 25 yards with decent ammo. Many do better. I shot a 1.3" 50 yard group using Laser-Cast bullets with a Bianchi X5 I set up for Mickey Fowler a few years ago. I fear no target presentation with such pistols.

But, don't take my word for it. Anyone who really, seriously wants to give a P226 a fair trial, let me know? I'll loan you one of my old match guns, a good holster, and some mags. I'll impart unto you what little I may think I know about running the trigger. You may still prefer your current choice, and that's fine. But maybe not?

Thanks for reading!

-Bruce

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I got Mr Gray above to put every IDPA allowed improvement on a P226.

Sorry, Bruce, but I just could not wring it out. I had done better with a CZ75 and Plastic M&P.

So I went back to the 1911oids.

I'd let you work on it again... if you would put a thumb safety on it and move the slide stop where the decocker used to be.

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Let it simply be said that I took a lot of negative comments about "high bore axis" and "the lousy SIG trigger" from a lot of shooters I beat, but only a few such comments from the real greats that bested me, and who generally knew better. Fact is, if a higher bore axis alone is an impassible barrier to competitiveness, then 1911's and many other platforms also are impossible to win with. And, at the risk of shameless self-promotion I'll put a properly built SIG competition action against ANYTHING else. Period.

It's funny. I've only shot my Beretta a couple times at USPSA matches (only once after getting it back from Dave Olhasso) and I've already had to endure one "use a real gun" comment.

I think ultimately it's a matter of settling on your chosen pistol, getting the trigger and sights where you need them, and then just spending the time putting the rounds down range with the gun. I'm sure some pistols are better than others, but I've seen enough people shoot really well with the Beretta series pistols in USPSA matches to come to the conclusion there isn't any reason why you can't excel with a Sig product like the venerable P226.

And don't the Navy special warfare people use a P226 variant? Bet they aren't complaining about high bore axis....

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Let it simply be said that I took a lot of negative comments about "high bore axis" and "the lousy SIG trigger" from a lot of shooters I beat, but only a few such comments from the real greats that bested me, and who generally knew better. Fact is, if a higher bore axis alone is an impassible barrier to competitiveness, then 1911's and many other platforms also are impossible to win with. And, at the risk of shameless self-promotion I'll put a properly built SIG competition action against ANYTHING else. Period.

It's funny. I've only shot my Beretta a couple times at USPSA matches (only once after getting it back from Dave Olhasso) and I've already had to endure one "use a real gun" comment.

I think ultimately it's a matter of settling on your chosen pistol, getting the trigger and sights where you need them, and then just spending the time putting the rounds down range with the gun. I'm sure some pistols are better than others, but I've seen enough people shoot really well with the Beretta series pistols in USPSA matches to come to the conclusion there isn't any reason why you can't excel with a Sig product like the venerable P226.

And don't the Navy special warfare people use a P226 variant? Bet they aren't complaining about high bore axis....

When it come to absolute reliability, I don't think there is a better platform out there, period.

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I'll share my experiences as an average talent shooter in USPSA (B class in Limited and Production) so take it for what it's worth.

I started out shooting Limited with an XDM40 5.25" with magwell and comp trigger. Great set up to begin competing. I wanted a heavier gun so went with a Sig X5 Competition model. Later, I had the chance to obtain a Sig X5 L1 with the adjustable trigger. I got it and started using it in Limited div. I've never shot a gun so well in my life. However, the max mag capacity I could reloadable was 17 rounds with the Roger Sherman extended basepads. Guys shooting an STI, SVI, Tanfo, CZ, etc, in Limited were getting 20 or more reloadable. To many people it probably would not be a big deal, but it was to me. But I want every advantage available. So, I eventually got an STI Edge for comp and had tuned mags that got 20 rds reloadable. If the Sig X5L1 had reloadable 20 rd mags I'd still be using it.

This last year (2014) I decided to try my hand at Production. I started with a Sig X5 Allround that had trigger work done by Sig Custom. I knew based on my other Sig X5's it would be an outstanding gun, and it was. I had a friend that owned a CZ Shadow that had trigger work done by Matt Mink. After handling it and shooting it, I was blown away by the DA trigger. I didn't know a DA trigger could be so sweet. So, I eventually switched to a CZ Accu Shadow that has the SRTS and trigger work done by CZ Custom. The DA trigger on the Sig X5 Allround with a Sig Custom Shop trigger job just doesn't match up to the DA trigger on the Accu. I really wish it did, but it just doesn't. I'll be shooting the Accu for many years.

I own some pretty nice guns, but my favorite of all time is, and probably always will be, the Sig X5L1. I hate to sound like a broken record, but FOR ME it just wasn't the optimal "competition" gun for the division I was shooting.

Edited by JGus
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I have noticed the striker fired plastic guns to be more popular in my area for a long time - even if they are not competitors. Especially, a lot of guys treat their Glocks like Erector Sets and do all sorts of modifications to them. Therefore, I suppose that the lower initial cost and the larger after market support must make a difference. Also, it seems like the DA/SA semiautomatic is just kind of dying off; people tend to follow trends. At the moment, most of the guys I shoot with have come down with the CZ virus, and everybody is showing up with $1,700 guns after they have an opportunity to test fire one.

BTW, there is a guy we shoot with at another club who we sometimes call "Mr. Sig." That's one guy!!!

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It's a reflection of the larger gun buying market. I was a police officer in the Mesozoic era back Smith and Wesson, Sig, and Beretta were the popular pistols for law enforcement. Glock's striker fired technology was about as disruptive as they come for that market and the other firms had to respond in kind. People dig striker fired guns so that's reflected in USPSA.

I miss the third generation Smith and Wesson pistols (You'll get my 6906 out of my cold dead hands...), but I understand that Smith had to respond to the changing market conditions and I suspect their cost of goods sold is less with striker fired pistols compared to the old school DA/SA pistols.

I'll be curious to see the results if Sig decides to start pushing their striker fired products for competitive action shooting especially if they leveraging people like Bruce Gray and Max Michel to help with the effort. Seems like you need some sort of customization option for people to leverage (people like Mr. Gray) and it's helpful to have someone out there showing that you can with with the product (Mr. Max).

Edited by ericjhuber
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I have noticed the striker fired plastic guns to be more popular in my area for a long time - even if they are not competitors. Especially, a lot of guys treat their Glocks like Erector Sets and do all sorts of modifications to them. Therefore, I suppose that the lower initial cost and the larger after market support must make a difference. Also, it seems like the DA/SA semiautomatic is just kind of dying off; people tend to follow trends. At the moment, most of the guys I shoot with have come down with the CZ virus, and everybody is showing up with $1,700 guns after they have an opportunity to test fire one.

BTW, there is a guy we shoot with at another club who we sometimes call "Mr. Sig." That's one guy!!!

One guy having a Sig isn't a trend, it's an anecdote.

I don't know what the thing is with "plastic" guns. They're not "plastic", of course, any more than the new Sig P320 is "plastic". They're a particular type of gun, and many people do quite well with them, including a whole lot of USPSA competitors and many LE agencies. Glock, M&P, XD, and now Sig.

People work on them for the same reason they tinker with cars - because they're guys (and some gals), it improves their function - and it's fun!

Not sure where the idea came from that the CZ thing is "dying off", especially if most of the guys you shoot with have CZs. I know several folks who have gotten the $795 version (about the same cost as a stock Sig) and find them to be pretty good shooters, and even better if you do some polishing and change out a couple of springs.

(Aren't you a revolver guy? Are you coming over to the Dark Side?)

Edited by teros135
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