why do more pro 3-gunners use scopes rather than red dot & magnifi

[Gadela08]

just competed in an all-rifle match yesterday and i was fairly happy with my performance. I currently have a Eotech Red Dot and a magnifier with a flip-mount.

When i watch video of the top 3-gunners, i see them all using scopes rather than a red dot. with the amount of close-up rifle targets in a typical match (i.e. less than 50 yards), i'd think that target acqusition with a red dot would be much faster.

so what's the reason here?

[Moltke]

Variable power scopes offer 1x at close range and 4x, 6x, 8x at long range.

[Graham Smith]

When i watch video of the top 3-gunners, i see them all using scopes rather than a red dot. with the amount of close-up rifle targets in a typical match (i.e. less than 50 yards), i'd think that target acqusition with a red dot would be much faster.

Depends some on the shooter and some on the scope and a lot on the match. It's entirely possible that they are shooting matches with a good deal more targets at distance or with limited shooting areas. In that case, a variable power scope is a better overall tool.

[TonytheTiger]

I guess I thought it was because no matter what class you normally shoot in, if you make it to something like the 3GN finals your gonna be shooting in TacOps cause they funnel everyone into the same class to keep a level playing field. At least that's my take on it as far as the top shooters go.

Edited December 1, 2014 by TonytheTiger

[co-exprs]

Variable power scopes offer 1x at close range and 4x, 6x, 8x at long range.

+1 Variable power scopes at 1x are just as fast as a red dot while offering significant advantages at distance. A good variable power is also much more versatile and robust than an RDS with a magnifier. Besides the obvious benefits of the variable power, a good scope offers you: 1) no shift in balance when deploying the magnification, 2) no shift in POI when changing magnification, 3) consistent eye relief, 4) the ability to focus the scope for the needs of your eyes, 5) scope adjustment turrets are more precise than RDS adjustment screws, 6) you get to pick you scope reticle to get MIL/MOA or BDC, 7) most scopes have much better glass than magnifiers. For the cost of an Eotech, Magnifier and flip mount, you can get a really nice scope.

[TonytheTiger]

^ Good 1x are as fast as a red dot, a cheap 1x variable is likely to give you a headache when shooting both eyes open. I know, I've got a cheap one for now. Just thought I'd add that.

[dcloudy777]

I tried the Eotech/Magnifier thing a few years back. Couldn't make it work for me.

Eye relief can be tricky, you don't get much magnification, and the dot gets bigger when you need it to get smaller.

[Boxerglocker]

Eotech 1 MOA dot becomes a 3 MOA dot with a magnifier.

[EkuJustice]

For the non bay matches most want magnification or if they are shooting irons/1x they are using something like a prismatic/spitfire which is a 1x reticle that works like a scope so the center is crisp for the distance shots. On red dot with magnifier, like was said the dot gets bigger too, and isnt as crisp as the center of a scope and you have 2 options and thats it. With a scope you have the option to give it just a little magnification and have the field of view or crank it up if your shooting long range where you want more magnification. For the close range bay stuff a red dot works well. Our last rifle only match was after our pistol match and we modified the stages VERY little and shot it with rifles, They were all down and out drag race stages and 4 of the top 5 were shooting limited ie red dot and actually only 1 in the top 4 shot a non SBR. If your able to set up different guns for different stuff you can use the one ideal to the match. For a one gun does all the scope just works best as its almost as fast up close as a dot and makes distance easier with the smaller crisper aiming point. You also dont have something off to the side of the rifle.

[Gadela08]

Eotech 1 MOA dot becomes a 3 MOA dot with a magnifier.

i disagree. with the magnifier, the target is also magnified 3x. so the dot remains 1moa

[co-exprs]

The dot is still 1moa with a magnifier. It magnifies with the target. The magnifier and mount just causes more trouble than it's worth. There are guys who run Eotechs and Aimpoints. They just don't bother with the magnifier. I ran an Aimpoint at SMM3G last year and had no trouble hitting the 400yd targets or clearing the 200yd plate rack. Most people find in the end that it's just plain faster to run a real scope or just go 1x.

[CJW]

I ran an EOTech and a 5x magnifier for a couple years when I first started. It's doable, but eventually it will become a hindrance. While an EOTech is better (I think) at hoser stages than even a good true 1x variable power scope, when you get to smaller targets at a little bit of distance—off-hand plate rack at 75 yards, paper head shots at 50 yards, reduced scale paper at 50 yards—then the ability to have intermediate magnification of 1.5–2.5x becomes very useful. Also, once you get to distance, you either stick with 3x and have too little magnification, or you get a 4x or 5x magnifier and you have a much smaller field of view than a decent variable scope of the same power. Smaller field of view means more time spent finding your targets as opposed to shooting at them.

Lastly, I occasional had an issue where the brightness needed to start a stage at up close paper was way different than I needed later in a stage for distance rifle. In one case, my sight picture was taken on the distance targets; I set my brightness there and then when I started the stage literally could not see my reticle against the paper targets in the bay. The flip side would be seeing the close targets and then having the brightness blow out the distance steel. If you find yourself having to change EOTech brightness on the clock, I think it is fair to say you've lost whatever advantage the HWS gave you in close.

[StealthyBlagga]

In the context of 3-Gun competition, Red Dot + Magnifier = Evolutionary Dead-End

[SinistralRifleman]

Because 3 Gun has reached the point where most stages are designed around the mean equipment set people have, and stages that would expose the liabilities of limited eye relief optics (amongst other things) are very rarely encountered.

[Bryan 45]

... and stages that would expose the liabilities of limited eye relief optics (amongst other things) are very rarely encountered.

Thank You, Russell! I completely agree.

[StealthyBlagga]

Because 3 Gun has reached the point where most stages are designed around the mean equipment set people have, and stages that would expose the liabilities of limited eye relief optics (amongst other things) are very rarely encountered.

Maybe, but to some extent that is a circular argument. My view is that 3-Gun is what it has always been, and low-power variables are just the easiest equipment to perform well with. The same can be said of longer barrels etc.. Not disagreeing with the contention that a different course of fire (closer range, forced awkward positions etc.) would drive different choices, as we have seen with 3 Gun Nation of late. I like to create such challenges from time to time, but the low-power variables still perform well enough to keep them at the top of the heap.

Edited December 3, 2014 by StealthyBlagga

[kellyn]

That's true Russell, but I'll take a scope every time over a RDS. Sure a RDS is slightly better for shooting upside down, sideways under a car etc. but a scope is better for the other 99% of shots.

[Corey]

Low power adjustable scopes can do the same (or pretty darn close to) a RDS at close range, but offer significantly more advantage on the long range stages.

[Shooter116]

It boils down to prize tables. There are more people in TacOps at most major matches and the prize tables are arranged accordingly. I shoot both Lim and TacOps depending on the match. It takes more skill to shoot 500 yards in Limited (TacIrons) than it does with a 6x scope but if the prize table sucks and you can't take enough off of it to pay part of the cost to shoot the match, it's worth shooting TacOps. And there are some matches that are not geared towards Limited. Fallen Brethren is one of those. Absolutely fantastic match but not one I would even think of shooting Limited at.

Edited December 12, 2014 by Shooter116

[Shooter116]

Even the pros have to offset their costs. Check out Jessie Tischauser's cost analysis of last season's expenses to shoot the matches he went to if you doubt that.

[Butterpuc]

Even the pros have to offset their costs. Check out Jessie Tischauser's cost analysis of last season's expenses to shoot the matches he went to if you doubt that.

I would like to see that is on BENOS?

[bikerburgess]

It boils down to prize tables. There are more people in TacOps at most major matches and the prize tables are arranged accordingly. I shoot both Lim and TacOps depending on the match. It takes more skill to shoot 500 yards in Limited (TacIrons) than it does with a 6x scope but if the prize table sucks and you can't take enough off of it to pay part of the cost to shoot the match, it's worth shooting TacOps. And there are some matches that are not geared towards Limited. Fallen Brethren is one of those. Absolutely fantastic match but not one I would even think of shooting Limited at.

The OP was asking about Dots with swing out magnifiers VS 1-x variable scopes, both have to shoot TacOps

[djeffers]

Variable power scopes offer 1x at close range and 4x, 6x, 8x at long range.

AND......many variable power scopes have illuminated reticles and BDC lines. Best of both worlds. I haven't seen very many red dot's with BDC.

[CJW]

AND......many variable power scopes have illuminated reticles and BDC lines. Best of both worlds. I haven't seen very many red dot's with BDC.

EOTech 557

[gerritm]

I just built a small light weight 16" rifle for the hoser type matches out to 200yards. I use this Eotech. I have found it is very fast for quick up close shots. Here is the model and reticle.

gerritm