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woodyblueballs

This is my foray into ...1500 fps goal met, just sharing

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Overall impressions

Wish I knew some things up front. First, a starline brass 45 acp super with the power pistol could saved me the conversion to 460 Roland. Once I read the reloading data on 460R rounds, keeping OAL the same as a 45ACP negates a longer brass. Second, I need to be more consistent with loading the charge and crimping. Even though the scale read accurately, the FPS tells me differently. Third, I hit my 1500 fps muzzle velocity goal and found the bottom charge point.

- need a consistent 6.8-7.2 (185gr bullet) charge for major power factor
- 5.5 to 6.25 grs is a nice soft shooting set up
- the 10x more expensive XTP jacketed is 10% faster than the berry hollow base plated bullets
- 1500 fps achievable with 45 acp brass (full supported chamber of lonewolf barrel) - Muzzle Energy(ft-lbs) = 998.51
- 13grs of PP is where I found 1500 fps with both Horny XTP and Berry HB
- a chrono that reads 5 of 10 OR 1 of 10 isn't fun
- favorite reloading combo is the berry hollow base in 460R and 45ACP


facts:
Gun-45ACP 21SF with lonewolf 6.61 Threaded barrel reamed for 460R
powder : Power Pistol ... this all I could get
bullets: Berry hollow base 185gr, .595" length
Hornady XTP 185 gr, .545" length

Actual data
40 S&W 180gr freedom ammo / G35 stock barrel / 1104 1088 1105 1105
40 S&W 180gr freedom ammo / G24 6.61” with compensator / 1083 1084 1184 1042 1175

[baseline] 45 ACP federal 230gr aluminum casing / G21L 6.61” / 905.7 937.5 917.6 906.6 1092 961.4
45 ACP berry 185gr hollow back copper plated / 6gr power pistol / 1565 860.2 805.3
45 ACP berry 185gr / 7gr power pistol / 1591 809.2 1343 889 904 820 927.8 939.6 968.0
45 ACP berry 185gr / 9gr power pistol / two stuck bullets in LW barrel, 1077, 1077, 1580, 1684
45 ACP berry 185gr hollow back / 13 gr power pistol/ blew the timer apart…no data
45 ACP berry 185gr hornady XTP hollow point / fun to shoot…no data

Day 2 changed from 15 lb/in to 24 lb/in recoil spring
[baseline] 45 ACP, FED 230gr, Al case / G21L 6.61” / 847.2, 869.2, 857, 846, 846

45 ACP case Berry-185gr – 5.0 grs ~1.2” OAL/ Won’t cycle with 24 lb-in recoil, spent case flip into chamber backwards / 548.6, 585, 643, 479, 400, 612, 840
45 ACP case-Berry 185gr hollow base/ G21L 6.61” / 9.0 gr – 1.21OAL ish / 1091, 1156, 1149, 2155 (lie), 1132, 994, 1103, 1018, 1146
45 ACP case-Horn XTP 185gr/ G21L 6.61” / 9.0gr -/ 1203, 1222, 1158 1236, 1227, 1232, 1287, 1124
460R case XTP 185 / 13gr / 1.21” OAL too damn short / 1512, 1510, 1542
460R case Berry 185gr / 13grs /1.21 and one 1.29 OAL / 1555, 1523, 1525
45 ACP case Berry 185 grs / 10 grs / 1.23” OAL / 1264 1161 1342
460R case XTP / 13 grs / 1.15 OAL way too low / 1529…these shot off without a problem
45 ACP case XTP / 13 grs / 1.13” OAL = 946.6(It lied), 1.17-1.24 OAL=no data, 1.24” OAL-1423 …good feel but I know the used 45 ACP case has its limits

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Welcome to the forums. IMO you should slow down a bit here. You're jumping too fast in powder charge without supporting data. You've had stuck bullets and a blown up chrono.I assume it wasn't a timer that you blew up. You're oal measurements are all over the place. Not sure where you got the 6.8-7.2 or the 5.25-6.25 powder load from this data.You state that 460R at 1.21 is, " too damn short". You then shoot at 1.15. Why? Your last data of the oal being somewhere between 1.17 and 1.24 with 13 grs of powder in a 45 acp is scary. Just trying to understand. Go slow and easy. Lot's of good loading experience here. Stay safe. :)

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Thanks for the note but the load is for 460 Rowland (supported barrel, better/stronger casing). still working up to "planned 14.5 grs of PP.

The OAL is all over the place because I'm still learning and don't mind being honest about what to expect from my loads.

So today was another learning day. Load of interest is 13.9-14.0 gr of Power Pistol, 185gr H. XTP, Starline 460R cases, CCI LP primers, OAL 1.285-1.270".

-> FPS... I have no idea. went 0 for 22 rounds for getting any measurement. 45ACP/Al case went 851,891,901, 888,... 40S&W (6.61+LWD compensator) white box 1125-1140 FPS. There is such a small window for a measurement with my device. ERR2 (no back sensor trip) with every 460R shot.

-> Case condition...one of the reasons I felt comfortable pushing forward was that no case impacts were seen with anything below 13.5grs with various OALs. However, about 1/3 off this lot (including twice fired Starline brass) had a slight (0.480 nominal) .482 bulge. So this is where I'll stop here and will back it down to 13.8 until I get a better fps measurements.

-> Safety...I pushing because I trust my measurements and calcs, but largely it is cool weather and each shot is monitored for over-pressure.

-> Functionality; Actually the round is not functional. The OAL (too long) causes jams in the metal lined magazines. I could only get 2-4 rounds per mag.

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What youngeyes said above. You should be able to fairly quickly determine the max OAL that your mags will tolerate regardless of which exact round you are loading into it. Use a set of calipers and save some frustration. You will have to change your seat die each time you change bullets to keep your OAL consistent.

Edited by wgj3

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You should learn how to use a chrono.

Especially if you're "going for broke" with your powder charges.

As Youngeyes and wgj3 mentioned, there is an easy way to determine

correct OAL - and you should have your crimp worked out before you

start hotlining loads.

What reloading equipment are you currently using.

Sounds like you might be a beginner at reloading, and (as stated above)

moving a little too fast. You're in dangerous territory .... :cheers:

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I've been dangerous all my life.

I'm using a Lyman turret setup with RCBS dies. I've learned to "process" 100 at a time-fully one step at a time after. Size/decapp/sonic clean, Expander (460R cases need more belling than shorter 45ACP), measure each load with scale, seat bullet to height.

The biggest challenge is switching back and forth between 45 ACP cases and the 460R. The 1/16th of an inch changes many of the settings just enough.

As far as the two stuck bullets, that was a crimp failure...given the 23 lb spring, the bullet was knocked forward. Interestingly it was thud sound vice anything puff like.

I think what people missed is that my work up went from 8grs to 14grs in 0.5 - steps and various OALs to allow me to access the risk of the next step.

Unfortunately, its the shock wave is really killing the chrono reliability (I keep forgetting) the supersonic shockwave. I probably need to move the chrono back another 5 feet.

I spent the last bit of the XTP ammo working on recoil handling of the round/gun; which is the range favorite so far.

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I've been dangerous all my life.

There's a line between dangerous and foolish. You are going to blow up your gun and hurt yourself with these loads! They are already on the ragged edge of sanity and you've made every indication you want to keep pushing it.

Below is my quickload calculation for your 13gr load. This is at 1.25", which is the nominal length of .460 Rowland.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Cartridge : .460 Rowland
Bullet : .451, 185, Hornady HP/XTP 45100
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 1.250 inch or 31.75 mm
Barrel Length : 5.2 inch or 132.1 mm
Powder : Alliant POWER PISTOL
Predicted data by increasing and decreasing the given charge,
incremented in steps of 3.846% of nominal charge.
CAUTION: Figures exceed maximum and minimum recommended loads !
Step Fill. Charge Vel. Energy Pmax Pmuz Prop.Burnt B_Time
% % Grains fps ft.lbs psi psi % ms
-38.5 67 8.00 964 381 14050 3173 70.7 0.697
-34.6 71 8.50 1019 426 15825 3482 73.4 0.660
-30.8 75 9.00 1074 474 17787 3796 76.1 0.627
-26.9 79 9.50 1129 523 19950 4112 78.6 0.596
-23.1 83 10.00 1184 576 22331 4429 81.0 0.567
-19.2 87 10.50 1239 630 24946 4745 83.3 0.538
-15.4 92 11.00 1294 687 27817 5059 85.4 0.510
-11.5 96 11.50 1348 747 30967 5368 87.4 0.485
-07.7 100 12.00 1403 808 34421 5672 89.3 0.461 ! Near Maximum !
-03.8 104 12.50 1457 872 38211 5966 91.0 0.440 ! Near Maximum !
+00.0 108 13.00 1512 939 42370 6252 92.5 0.419 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+03.8 112 13.50 1566 1007 46939 6526 93.9 0.400 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+07.7 116 14.00 1620 1077 51964 6786 95.2 0.383 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+11.5 121 14.50 1673 1150 57497 7031 96.3 0.366 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+15.4 125 15.00 1727 1225 63603 7261 97.3 0.351 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+19.2 129 15.50 1780 1301 70354 7471 98.1 0.336 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
You are ABOVE MAX PRESSURE with your 13gr load at 1.25. I have no idea how much stronger .460 brass is compared to .45 brass, but think about this... are you making any sort of mark that differentiates a Rowland load compared to a normal .45 load? What is stopping someone from accidentally taking one of your 45 ACP brass loads and loading it into a .45 rated for 21k PSI with potentially disastrous results?
You are also running a compressed charge. Small differences in OAL will result in HUGE differences in pressure. I ran the numbers on your 13gr PP 1.13" load.....
1741fps and 95584PSI. NINETY FIVE THOUSAND PSI. That could have easily blown your gun (and your hand)! I couldn't even view the results on the computer without clicking through an entire screen worth of warnings.
I know you say you're dangerous. People with that attitude tend to disregard warnings like this one, but I hope you read this and understand what I (and the entire forum) am trying to tell you.
In my profession we have a saying, there are old pilots and there are bold pilots. There are no old bold pilots.
Stay safe

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What terryYu said !

You are holding a bomb ready to go off. The polymer Glock is strong, But not as strong as a all metal gun I think.

You are pushing it! Stay safe guy!

If its the full power you want, Get yourself a S&W 500 magnum or a 50 Cal Desert Eagle.

Edited by ghost21

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Again thanks for the inputs

It seems 14 gr of PP is going to be what it is for the Rowland cartridge; and Im sticking 10 grs for 45ACP with berry 185gr bullets.

I realize most people lookout for the flippant, but its not the case. Dangerous is going to a foreign where no uniform or prayer will keep you safe. Its only if an IED is meant for you or not. Loading ammo and watching for signs/indications of over pressure a every change is far less dangerous especially if done with wisdom and full control over parameters.

TerryYu thanks for posting some new information.

Granted there are attacks here, but if anyone else is willing to post 460R loads experience I'd be grateful. The 460R is a different animal than the 45ACP.

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For those trying to understand a polymer frame and this load consider this; the force and energy acting on the bullet is in balance with the much much heavier heavier slide. in both cases the load path is the barrel. The barrel has a hook that holds the polymer frame...when in balance. There are no loads going through the frame...when in balance. A heavier recoil spring (15 lb/in to 25 lb/in), much heavier slide, heavier barrel, compensator and losing half of each lot of 460R brass helps with balance.

If anything I was trying to get to an over gas state to take advantage of the comp more.

Edited by woodyblueballs

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Dangerous is going to a foreign where no uniform or prayer will keep you safe. Its only if an IED is meant for you or not.

Getting blown up is getting blown up, whether it's by an IED or by self made hand grenade.

It's still going to suck.

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What is the purpose for this load? Just clocking velocity for the sake of velocity seems a bit pointless. But, if that's what you want, there are many better calibers. Start with a .460 S&W or one of the bolt action hand cannons silhouette shooters use. They will safely give you high velocities without endangering your neighbors at the range.

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Just to reassure anyone who comes across this post in the future, 460 Rowland requires a big comp, heavier recoil spring, fully supported chamber and specialty brass to function properly and safely.  Here are some published loads:

https://www.460rowland.com/load-data/

 

I see 13.9 gr of power pistol is one of them, so I do not think woodyblueballs is the maniac some have made him out to be.  

 

There has been debate if 45 ACP brass can handle 460R pressures.  Regardless of if it can or not, I think the extra 1/16" brass length is cheap insurance should somebody else pick up your ammo and try to shoot it out of a 45 acp gun

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I had a 460 Rowland conversion on my XDm 4.5” 45. Running a 22 lb Wolf spring. 

Worked up numerous loads for max power while still retaining 45 acp  accuracy. 

Unfortunately after two barrels from them I abondened project. It kept destroying guide rod lips in a very short time and even after having them make a custom HD rod it’s was still an issue. Specs on barrel lug are considerably different than stock which is impacting guide rod lip at off angle and destroying it. 

With that said the best loads were with Starline 460r brass and Longshot. 

Tests at 3k elevation, 35* and 70% humidity average. Meant to be a back up gun for grizzly, cats and wolves when hunting in NW Montana. Since acquired a XDm 5.25” 10mm  and working on loads for it. 

460R loads we settled on while still giving excellent accuracy: 

200 Lehigh Penetrators , longshot 13 grn, Fed 150, 1.252oal=1524fps. Primer sign at 1680range 

230 Berry’s FMJ, Longshot 11grn,fed 150. 1.265oal=1350fps. Primer fail at 1550 range 

 

  

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