Never load for 40 major with Clays at a short OAL . . .

[Whoops!]

I did though and it worked great. I believe Clays experiences huge pressure bumps when compressed. I stopped just at the point at which it would start being compressed with my 200 gr load.

Now, I know how fast burning a powder Clays is. As a result, I was surprised that without compression, the primers looked normal. Not even flattened . . . I was very surprised.

What I ended up with behind a 200 gr Bayou bullet was 3.6 gr at 1.125 OAL. This load gave me 164 power factory at 40 degrees f, 700' msl, through the 5.4" barrel of a CZ Tactical Sport. Any shorter OAL, or anymore powder, and the load would be compressed. From my research, that means STRANGER DANGER, STRANGER DANGER!

With a Frontier 180 gr tmj, 4.2 gr same power factor and OAL.

I couldn't even feel these loads when firing. That's how soft they are (In reality I forgot my jacket, it was cold, my hands went numb).

As I said, I don't recommend this. I'm playing with fire here. But, no noticeable pressure signs as of yet with either of these loads, which should give major when its 70 degrees at sea level in the florida open or in Atlanta at Nats. The OAL at which .40 touches the rifling of my CZ is 1.155. With unmodified mags, 1.125 is the longest I can go and still get reliable operation with a light recoil spring.

It makes sense that those normally loading for a cushion would have big issues with a short OAL.

[RangerTrace]

When I first got my 650, I loaded 3K rounds of 4.7 grains of Clays under a 180 grain MG JHP to 1.22". They were really sweet out of my Infinity...

[wide45]

I have shot something like 30 thousand rounds of .40 major loaded with Clays. I would do it again.

But not your way.

You are not making major, and I'm not convinced you can under match conditions. Good luck.

Edited November 12, 2014 by wide45

[kneelingatlas]

WHAT?!?

There you go again gathering actual empirical evidence!

Take a walk on the wild side

[noexcuses]

_{clays in .40 is bad and dangerous, for your safety you should send it all to me to dispose of . I will get rid of it one shot at a time lol}

[GeorgeD]

I posted not to long ago my findings, I was not too impressed at first but the more I shoot the more I like it.

Just picked up 8lbs of Clay Dot this morning online from Widener's . Gonna experiment with that, see if it's the same

[blaster113]

Our powder situation in my neck of the woods in Hawaii is quite desperate. Meaning we cant get shit. A local shooter was liquidating some powder so out of pure desperation I bought a 4lb jug of Clays from him to use in my .40 for practice ammo. I was super nervous at first after reading all the horror stories about kabooms so I tried to make the most conservative major load I could brew. 180 grain BBIs at 1.20 oal, using only 1x fired brass. At 3.9 grains I was getting very slight cratering with some primers starting to flatten. 3.8 grains with a SR primer would give about the same velocity but with absolutely no pressure signs. Burned through a few 1000 so far and no issues.

Bottom line; I really like the Clays and coated/moly bullet combo which makes a sweet soft shooting load. I'm going to buy a shitload of Clays if I can ever find some again just to use in my 5.5" for practice/local match ammo. N320 and jhps for major matches.

Edited November 16, 2014 by blaster113

[Whoops!]

Same load at 72 degrees, same elevation - 5 round average of 169 power factor

[CHA-LEE]

I have probably shot over 50,000 .40 caliber rounds using Clays + 180gr jacketed or plated bullets. For the most part it worked great, was super clean, and soft shooting. But even when using a long OAL of 1.225 I still had the occasional KABOOM case head separation. For the most part I chalked this up to taking the chances of dancing with the devil and lived with it. Then I had a case head separation at the Nationals and ended up zeroing a field course stage. That is when I decided that using Clays for .40 major wasn't worth the risk of throwing away thousands of dollars in travel expenses while attending out of state major matches due to match wrecking case head separations. After that I switched to using WST for my .40 Major loads, which produces the same felt recoil but is WAY safer than Clays.

Clays works in .40 Major. But its just like owning a dirt bike. Its not a matter of IF you will wreck, its only a matter of WHEN. Use at your own risk.

Edited December 8, 2014 by CHA-LEE

[kneelingatlas]

CHA-LEE, did you ever get an indication the case head separations were double charges? Were you consistently getting flat primers?

[CHA-LEE]

CHA-LEE, did you ever get an indication the case head separations were double charges? Were you consistently getting flat primers?

No double charges or flattened primers on my loads. I would religiously watch the powder drop level of all rounds I loaded and a double charge would result in an overflowing case full of powder. When I used Clays powder the case head separations seemed to be more linked to the age, quality, or cleanliness of the brass. For example, the majority of the case head separations that I experienced were on PMC brass or brass that was tarnished. I never had a case head separation on a high quality brass like Star Line, but then again I didn't shoot a ton of it because it was expensive. I would simply use random mixed range brass due to my limited budget and high volume of rounds I was shooting every month. When I figured out that the PMC and tarnished brass was more likely to have issues I segregated that ammo to only be used in practice so that further reduced the chances of a case head separation during a match, but it would still happen every once in a while.

I do know that Clays is MEGA sensitive to being compressed so I would always use a powder drop size or OAL that had a decent air gap between the top of the charge in the case and the bottom of the bullet when it was seated. That air gap inside the case is your insurance. The less there is the more likely of a KABOOM. That is why people always recommend using a really long OAL with Clays.

[yoshidaex]

After that I switched to using WST for my .40 Major loads, which produces the same felt recoil but is WAY safer than Clays.

How about the issues with WST being inverse temp sensitive?

[CHA-LEE]

After that I switched to using WST for my .40 Major loads, which produces the same felt recoil but is WAY safer than Clays.

How about the issues with WST being inverse temp sensitive?

Clays is inverse temp sensitive as well. WST has a more dramatic velocity affect to temp changes, but its not an "Issue" if you account for it. You simply account for it by artificially heating up the ammo to 100+ degrees when you chrono it to make sure its still making major when its hot. If it still makes major at 100+ degrees then you are good to go.

[Whoops!]

The clays I am using is not inverse temperature sensitive. From 30's to 70's, there was a significant increase in average velocity. It may be inverse temp sensitive after a point, but from near freezing to average temp, it definitely increased in velocity. I have a very recent batch from the factory, I don't know if anything has changed.

[ZombieHunter]

Clays is definitely NOT inverse temperature sensitive.

[CHA-LEE]

Clays is definitely NOT inverse temperature sensitive.

uuuuhhhhhh.......... Yes it is. Clays powder goes SLOWER the hotter the temperature it is. Just the same as WST. Both WST and Clays powders are Inverse temperature sensitive. "Normal" temperature sensitivity produces a higher velocity when the temperature raises.

[jmbaccolyte]

Whatever happened to "Eats shoots and leaves"? That was great!

[AJE]

After that I switched to using WST for my .40 Major loads, which produces the same felt recoil but is WAY safer than Clays.

How about the issues with WST being inverse temp sensitive?

That's why I switched to Bullseye, personally.

I never had it go sub minor on me but I had a buddy that had a Glock match ruined due to his loads being too soft in the warm weather.

[Whoops!]

As I said, in my experience with the batch of straight Clays which I am using, it is definitely not inverse temperature sensitive.

[fastarget]

Any definitive chrono data on clays ? is it inverse sensitive or not ?

[arnettcw1]

I am interested to hear more on the issue of Clays being temperature sensitive/inverse temp sensitive. I plan on starting to use some for 45 loads. FWIW, I have shot a lot of Clays and WST in shotgun reloads for trap and can say from experience that Clays slows down dramatically when the temperature falls (again, in 12 gauge shotgun loads). Also, from my experience, WST is not very sensitive to temperature in shotgun loads. Of course, I think something like 18 or 19 grains was used instead of the normal 4 to 5 for pistol loads which likely was a factor.

[phil plesetz]

There are 2 types of Clays, or I should say 2 places of manufacture and they aren't the same. Maybe this is the differences some of you may be seeing.

Old Clays manufactured in Australia

New Clays Canada

It is absolutely different in shotgun performance. Canada is hotter with the same charge drop.

[zzt]

I've never used WST in anything other than 45 ACP.  It is temp sensitive, but not straight inverse.  As you warm from freezing, velocities increase.  That reaches a peak around 65-70 degrees.  Further increases in temp results in decreased velocity.  Since these were bullseye loads and I shot in temps between 30 and 90 degrees, this was annoying.  However, it was waaaay better than the N310 I used previously.

 

I cured the problems by switching to Alliant e3.  I now use it for 45 bullseye loads, plus 40sw major and minor loads.  It has zero temp sensitivity.  BTW, no kabooms in 40 major with 180gr bullets (172PF)  loaded to 1.126".