Clarification on CZ Shadow Target legality?

[v1911]

SSP = STOCK Service Pistol.

Nothing stock about milling a slide to accept a feature that it didn't leave the factory with.

Do you even read the rulebook bro?

8.2.1.3.1.

Sights may be changed to another notch

and post type but slides may not be machined to

accept different style sights in SSP.

The only difference between the S&W Performance Center and CZ Custom is one of semantics.

Huh?

The Performance Center is part of S&W...same company and location. CZ Customs is not part of CZ-US. They're different companies.

That's a bit more than semantics...

CZ Custom's products are SKUs/catalog items of CZ USA. S&W Performance Center's products are SKUs/catalog items of SMith & Wesson.

Where's the difference again?

S&W Performance Center's 1911 are legal for ESP. Their M&P are not SSP legal.

I don't understand why some mods are ok for SSP and others aren't. But as mentioned above, they appear to me mostly cosmetic based. And that's probably to save time at the chrony table when they inspect your gun.

[elguapo]

The only difference between the S&W Performance Center and CZ Custom is one of semantics.

Huh?

The Performance Center is part of S&W...same company and location. CZ Customs is not part of CZ-US. They're different companies.

That's a bit more than semantics...

CZ Custom's products are SKUs/catalog items of CZ USA. S&W Performance Center's products are SKUs/catalog items of SMith & Wesson.

Where's the difference again?

I thought I just explained that?

CZ Customs is not the same company as CZ-USA. The Performance Center IS a part of S&W.

So now IDPA is in the business of dictating which kind of corporate structure is OK and which one is not?

Let's say CZ-USA built the Accu Shadown in their KS City facility. What then? Will you say that's still not good enough because the pistol was not made that way by CZUB in the Czech Republic?

After all, CZ-USA is just the importer.......

Edited November 6, 2014 by elguapo

[v1911]

It definitely doesn't make sense. S&W had their slide lightened 1911, which normally would be illegal. Glock has their coffin cut slide, again, normally illegal.

But most of the grey has to do with CDP and ESP where some mods are permitted. None of that has anythg to do with SSP.

[elguapo]

It definitely doesn't make sense. S&W had their slide lightened 1911, which normally would be illegal. Glock has their coffin cut slide, again, normally illegal.

Somebody's seeing the big picture..................

[jcc7x7]

yea again they (IDPA) doesn't really want to have a shooting organization they are trying to rival the US Government of doing things that make 0 sense. Maybe Obama is going to be the next president of idpa

[johes]

Simple fix, adopt USPSA's production gun list. There's not a gun on that list that shouldn't be legal for SSP. Of course, we can't do anything like "those people". IDPA declares a gun illegal the night before the Nationals (CZ), now Target based on the fact the milling for a plain LPA sight was done by CZ Custom, (CZ). A major sponsor now has an optics ready model and all of a sudden, there's talk of an optics division in a supposed, non race gun sport. Am I the only one that thinks this all has a bad smell to it?

Edited November 7, 2014 by johes

[rowdyb]

the cz thing is because wilson combat is getting into berreta in a big way. they used their influence to remove their main competitor for who has the best da/sa gun for ssp in idpa.

like everything in life, this is about money.

[johes]

the cz thing is because wilson combat is getting into berreta in a big way. they used their influence to remove their main competitor for who has the best da/sa gun for ssp in idpa.

like everything in life, this is about money.

Like jcc7x7 says, just like Washington, even lobbyists.

[elguapo]

A major sponsor now has an optics ready model and all of a sudden, there's talk of an optics division in a supposed, non race gun sport. Am I the only one that thinks this all has a bad smell to it?

While compact, slide mounted red dot sights do have a place in defensive handguns, IDPA has dragged their feet on this for some time now. Which makes the timing very suspect now as you point out.

[GOF]

One must remember that unlike USPSA, IDPA is a "for profit" business. As long as they can create enough new customers to compensate for the ones they lost, and maybe even pick up some new ones. they seem to feel that it's worth the effort. In that respect I can't fault them. They are not dealing with individuals or "small market share".

But, if enough screw ups come down from HQ and they start to lose members (overall market share), then they have no one to blame but themselves. Live by the 'business plan'... die by the 'business plan'. Only time will tell which occurs.

[johes]

the cz thing is because wilson combat is getting into berreta in a big way. they used their influence to remove their main competitor for who has the best da/sa gun for ssp in idpa.

like everything in life, this is about money.

I just found my 2005 rulebook. The part about not milling the slide to accept another sight is not in there. Any reasonable equipment check officer would have just called the Shadow Target as having another notch and post sight. The timing of the present rule book and the Wilson Beretta sure seems to reinforce Rowdy's comment. HQ, we know you read these things. Can you prove us wrong? Edited November 9, 2014 by johes

[2MoreChains]

Interesting. So for those that say SSP = STOCK Service Pistol, did the Beretta 92G leave the BERETTA factory with all the features that the WC version offers?

http://shopwilsoncombat.com/Beretta-_-Wilson-Combat-92G-Brigadier-Tactical-9mm/productinfo/BER%2D92BRIG%2D9/

[v1911]

Interesting. So for those that say SSP = STOCK Service Pistol, did the Beretta 92G leave the BERETTA factory with all the features that the WC version offers?

http://shopwilsoncombat.com/Beretta-_-Wilson-Combat-92G-Brigadier-Tactical-9mm/productinfo/BER%2D92BRIG%2D9/

I had to take a look for myself after reading some of the posts in this thread.

They even refer to it as a custom build. How would this even fit into the SSP division? ESP, sure! But SSP? I would hope not.

[rowdyb]

And now you know why i raised such a fuss about this!

[johes]

My last on this. Note that CZ Custom states that the Shadow Target must be bought through CZ USA and their dealers, not CZ Custom. Wilson states that their Beretta is exclusive to Wilson Combat and their Premier dealers.

Edited November 9, 2014 by johes

[elguapo]

Do not look behind the curtain

[2MoreChains]

From the WC website:

"Wilson Combat and Beretta USA have collaborated to produce the ultimate 92 Series Tactical Pistol."

So replace WC with CZ Custom, and Beretta USA with CZ USA and basically you have the same thing: "CZ Custom and CZ USA have collaborated to produce the ultimate CZ Shadow Target pistol."

Also from the WC website:

"This model is exclusive to Wilson Combat and available direct from Wilson Combat or from Wilson Combat Premier dealers only."

Or in the context of CZ: "The CZ SP-01 Shadow Target models is exclusive to CZ Custom and available direct from CZ USA or CZ Custom item # 91159."

And lastly from the WC website: "IDPA Stock Service Pistol approved"

Hmmm... I'm at a loss.

[elguapo]

It's amazing that the IDPA kool aid drinkers are now conspicuously absent now that evidence of IDPA's bias against CZ USA and CZ Custom keeps on keeping on

[2MoreChains]

Hell, I'm not trying to out IDPA's dirty laundry with conspiracy theories, I just don't see the point of rule 8.2.1.3.1 and would like to see them revert to the 2005 version of the rule to allow sight modifications as long as they are conventional notch and post.

[rowdyb]

Let alone I spoke with a Wilson rep directly at nationals and asked him personally, "how many pistols do you guys make a month?" To which he said they average no more than 300 a month. That's 3,600 pistols a year. Like hell if WC makes 2 thousand of those a year...... but whatever.

I sold my czc guns that ipda ruled illegal. I have different cz guns now that are legal. But I sure as hell am not shooting big idpa matches in 2015. My last match I won DC. I think that's good enough to end on.

[ac4wordplay]

From the WC website:

"Wilson Combat and Beretta USA have collaborated to produce the ultimate 92 Series Tactical Pistol."

So replace WC with CZ Custom, and Beretta USA with CZ USA and basically you have the same thing: "CZ Custom and CZ USA have collaborated to produce the ultimate CZ Shadow Target pistol."

Also from the WC website:

"This model is exclusive to Wilson Combat and available direct from Wilson Combat or from Wilson Combat Premier dealers only."

Or in the context of CZ: "The CZ SP-01 Shadow Target models is exclusive to CZ Custom and available direct from CZ USA or CZ Custom item # 91159."

And lastly from the WC website: "IDPA Stock Service Pistol approved"

Hmmm... I'm at a loss.

I agree with your position. In an attempt to prevent an attack on a technical flaw in your above argument, I wonder if one of your statements may benefit from a modification so that your comparisons remain consistent.

Using your original exchange proposal ("replace WC with CZ Custom, and Beretta USA with CZ USA"), and these two statements:

"This model is exclusive to Wilson Combat and available direct from Wilson Combat or from Wilson Combat Premier dealers only."

Or in the context of CZ: "The CZ SP-01 Shadow Target models is exclusive to CZ Custom and available direct from CZ USA or CZ Custom item # 91159."

One of them seems to need to be adjusted. Either this:

This model is exclusive to Wilson Combat and available direct from Wilson Combat or from Wilson Combat Beretta USA Premier dealers only.

Or in the context of CZ: The CZ SP-01 Shadow Target models is exclusive to CZ Custom and available direct from CZ USA or CZ Custom item # 91159.

...or this:

This model is exclusive to Wilson Combat and available direct from Wilson Combat or from Wilson Combat Premier dealers only.

Or in the context of CZ: The CZ SP-01 Shadow Target models is exclusive to CZ Custom and available direct from CZ USA CZ Custom or CZ Custom item # 91159.

...would seem to remove the technical flaw. It then presents other things to consider.

Respectfully,

ac

[GOF]

I think this comes down to corporate "do as I say and not as I do, and it doesn't have to make any real sense, since we now state it does". Kinda reminds me of a Dilbert cartoon

[johes]

I think their "don't like our rules, don't play our game" attitude may come back to haunt them.

Edited November 10, 2014 by johes

[2MoreChains]

From the WC website:

"Wilson Combat and Beretta USA have collaborated to produce the ultimate 92 Series Tactical Pistol."

So replace WC with CZ Custom, and Beretta USA with CZ USA and basically you have the same thing: "CZ Custom and CZ USA have collaborated to produce the ultimate CZ Shadow Target pistol."

Also from the WC website:

"This model is exclusive to Wilson Combat and available direct from Wilson Combat or from Wilson Combat Premier dealers only."

Or in the context of CZ: "The CZ SP-01 Shadow Target models is exclusive to CZ Custom and available direct from CZ USA or CZ Custom item # 91159."

And lastly from the WC website: "IDPA Stock Service Pistol approved"

Hmmm... I'm at a loss.

I agree with your position. In an attempt to prevent an attack on a technical flaw in your above argument, I wonder if one of your statements may benefit from a modification so that your comparisons remain consistent.

Using your original exchange proposal ("replace WC with CZ Custom, and Beretta USA with CZ USA"), and these two statements:

"This model is exclusive to Wilson Combat and available direct from Wilson Combat or from Wilson Combat Premier dealers only."

Or in the context of CZ: "The CZ SP-01 Shadow Target models is exclusive to CZ Custom and available direct from CZ USA or CZ Custom item # 91159."

One of them seems to need to be adjusted. Either this:

This model is exclusive to Wilson Combat and available direct from Wilson Combat or from Wilson Combat Beretta USA Premier dealers only.

Or in the context of CZ: The CZ SP-01 Shadow Target models is exclusive to CZ Custom and available direct from CZ USA or CZ Custom item # 91159.

...or this:

This model is exclusive to Wilson Combat and available direct from Wilson Combat or from Wilson Combat Premier dealers only.

Or in the context of CZ: The CZ SP-01 Shadow Target models is exclusive to CZ Custom and available direct from CZ USA CZ Custom or CZ Custom item # 91159.

...would seem to remove the technical flaw. It then presents other things to consider.

Respectfully,

ac

AC, I hear what you are saying, however the statement I wrote that says the CZ SP-01 Shadow Target is available direct from CZ USA and CZ Custom is true since both websites list the same pistol and cite the same catalog number.

CZ USA: http://cz-usa.com/product/cz-75-sp-01-shadow-target-9mm-black-3x18-rd-mags-by-cz-custom/

CZ Custom: http://czcustom.com/shadowtarget.aspx

In contrast, I can't find the WC customized 92G Brigadier model on BerettaUSA's website, even when looking at their premium line. So as quoted from WC's website, the WC 92G Brigadier is exclusive to Wilson Combat.

But one is legal and the other is not. This is the part that is not making sense to me.

[GOF]

It's not supposed to make sense. Berryville says it, and thus it must be so. We poor peons must simply pay or annual dues and shut up. If the gun we shot that was legal yesterday, but is not legal today, the 'Higher Powers' must have a good reason for it. Ours is not to wonder why........