IDPA Final Rulebook

[Ted Murphy]

Gabe,

I do not see how it can be confusing to you. It could be spelled out better but it is far from confusing.

PP 3. Failure-to-Neutralize (FTN):

A. Will add five (5) seconds per infraction. This penalty applies to any target that does not have at least one (1) four zone (minus 1) hit. See Appendix NINE-Target-Scoring Zones for further clarification. Failure to neutralize penalties ONLY applies when standard Vickers Count scoring is used and the target(s) do not completely disappear.

B. Does NOT apply to Limited Vickers scoring or to permanently disappearing targets.

[rhino]

It would have been easy to state it more clearly. I agree with GRD that it is confusing, because it does not actually say what it is supposed to "mean," regardless of the gyrations one wishes to perform to get there.

[GRD]

Just for the record: I'm not confused. I know what they meant. Point is, what they meant is not what it says.

[ronin45230]

No slidelock reloads in the open? What do you do if you're shooting on the move and you run dry?

move with an empty gun, exposed.......... looking for cover to reload behind ! (and you'd better not eject that empty mag till you're get behind cover either)

if that's not "negitive training", nothing is.

[TractorTed]

I'm sick and tired and depressed and frustrated and annoyed and ticked off and mostly stuck in a bind because there is no better game than what this is, except for what this was. I am now forced to either quit, or buy new equipment, (or should I say holsters because we all know equipment means gun), and play a redefined, thus watered down version of the only game I've ever been really good at. I won't quit, but I don't think my heart will be in it like it was. Here come the FTHF penalties.

Ted Picard

[Duane Thomas]

- Slide-Lock-Reloads are not allowed in the open, so that was short-lived.

Bummer. I thought that was one of the better changes, actually.

[Duane Thomas]

Here come the FTHF penalties.

"FTHF"?

[Duane Thomas]

but what about that big, thick -3 portion right below the -1 area? Even Ayoob's advocated the pelvic shot as being a viable one shot stopper, if not more of one than the Mozambique because of the difficulty in landing the head shot. And if I recall right, the zipper drill is taught these days as much in law enforcement as the Mozambique is. 'Course, these folk have to be about as practical as it gets.....

Actually, the pelvic shot is recommended for putting people on the ground to do away with their mobility. That doesn't mean they're disabled. Probably won't be, actually.

[Duane Thomas]

QUOTE (GRD @ Jan 26 2005, 10:35 PM)

I'm confident that the rule means you have to have a single -1 zone hit or better to avoid the FTN. But if you read the rule, literally, as it is written, you would need to have at least one -1 zone hit on the target, even if you had other better hits.

PP 3. Failure-to-Neutralize (FTN):

A. Will add five (5) seconds per infraction. This penalty applies to any target that does not have at least one (1) four zone (minus 1) hit.

at least means -1 at a minimum, so -0 would be okay too.

I know you are trying to be the grammar king but it is spelled out well enough.

Absolutely.

[TractorTed]

Here come the FTHF penalties.

"FTHF"?

Failure To Have Fun.

Depending upon whether or not you believe responsibilty means requirement, you could be penalized for not having fun. See #11 at the bottom of page 52. I mean this, in part, as a jab at the people, myself included, who split hairs about the rulebook. I agree with the crowd that thinks that they should have written what they mean as opposed to the "C'mon, you know what they mean" crowd. No offense intended, it's just that I know SO's that are just waiting for more reasons to issue penalties. The power hungry are going to suck this up like thirsty camel sucks up water. Yes I know what they meant, but it's not me I'm worried about, it's them.

Ted Picard

[TractorTed]

but what about that big, thick -3 portion right below the -1 area? Even Ayoob's advocated the pelvic shot as being a viable one shot stopper, if not more of one than the Mozambique because of the difficulty in landing the head shot. And if I recall right, the zipper drill is taught these days as much in law enforcement as the Mozambique is. 'Course, these folk have to be about as practical as it gets.....

Actually, the pelvic shot is recommended for putting people on the ground to do away with their mobility. That doesn't mean they're disabled. Probably won't be, actually.

Hit me in the pelvic area and I'm done. I'd be too upset about loosing my "happy place" to put up a fight.

Ted

[rwmagnus]

So ... two hits in "down zero" incurs a failure to neutralize.

BINGO ...give the man a cigar you hit the nail right on the "down zero" and didn't even get a FTN!

At least round three is better than the previous versions. Also proves nobody ever printed any correctly the first time on a computer. Not to mention the valuable HELP the members provided when it was evident assistance was needed.

[pisgahrifle]

Really? I had no idea that breaking the pelvic girdle causes the body to collapse under its own weight, hence causing a cesation of mobility. I thought the drill was used just 'cause it hade a neat name. Of course, I should have known better than to listen to the instructors, because being cops they wouldn't have known that any human being can take several 230s to the "groonies" and still be a pain-free fightin' machine (albeit and immobile one), despite bleeding out and suffering from intestinal injuries that release digestive fluids into the lower abdominus. That's what cops get for listening to doctors! You should write a book setting them all straight!

[ronin45230]

- Slide-Lock-Reloads are not allowed in the open, so that was short-lived.

Bummer. I thought that was one of the better changes, actually.

Agree. I must have sent 10 e-mails on that issue!@!@! (as well as the belt/holster loop gap nonsense/rule)..... I thought we had them on track concerning the reloading one though.

Yes, I know I used "we" and "them"..... but it's came to that. Why "they" won't let people/members vote of changes is beyond me. All I can say is, they ain't getting any of my $$ any more. I’ll shoot as a member-at large, or I’ll shoot ipsc, or something else.

To bad you can't use your carry gear in idpa...... and need to buy special "idpa competition" equ.

[Ted Murphy]

- Slide-Lock-Reloads are not allowed in the open, so that was short-lived.

Bummer. I thought that was one of the better changes, actually.

I was pretty excited too. Some of us were lobbying for that at nats with HQ staff.

Ted.

[p7fl]

- Slide-Lock-Reloads are not allowed in the open, so that was short-lived.

Bummer. I thought that was one of the better changes, actually.

Can some one breakdown what steps in a "reload" you can do in the open.

Drop mag,

retreive a new one,

insert

but not release the slide and still be in the spirit of the match.

Its going to come up.

[GRD]

Can some one breakdown what steps in a "reload" you can do in the open.

None. You can't even drop the empty mag until you're behind cover.

All reloads begin with the shooter’s first action to initiate the reload (ejection of the magazine, drawing a spare magazine, etc.) and end when the weapon is fully charged and ready to fire (magazine fully locked into the weapon and the slide fully forward or cylinder closed).  Reloads can only be initiated while behind cover.

It is apparently highly un-tactical to drop a dead magazine while sprinting for cover.

I've got another real question: when is cover 'available'? How many feet/meters/steps or whatever do you need to be from cover to have it qualify as 'available'?

- Gabe

[Magnum314]

This is an excerpt from a post I put on the IDPA forum.

*****

The crux of the whole problem is Berryville’s refusal to understand the protocol or etiquette required for a rulebook of this caliber. Without being to critical, an international organization needs to have WORLD CLASS definitions and use appropriate language that would hold up in a court of law. We all understand the “intent” or “spirit” of what they want this sport to be, and perhaps that would be fine if it were just for 100 people to go shoot a local match. But on a national scale, it would have done everyone concerned justice to have a professionally written rulebook that would make a lawyer blush (sorry folks, that’s the world we live in).

There are a lot of improvements in the format and clarifications of many rules and debates from the previous LGB. However, many seem to think that just because a document is well written that it’s a good job. I would argue that a well written document in good format is the bare minimum requirement of a rule book. To say that because something has improved tremendously is warrant enough for its acceptance is like saying that a product with a major safety recall that is resolved is now an excellent product. No, it’s now on par with what it should have been in the first place. I applaud the efforts of the powers that be for the corrections and improvements, but I’m not getting excited about it.

The true issue that anyone with an analytical eye should have seen is that the content of the book is still lacking. It’s still chocked full of opinion, self proclaimed definitions and jargon. It’s not so much a rulebook as it is someone’s definition of what they want in a game while all the time discrediting those who would play it as a game!

Incredible irony!

I’m not discrediting the fact that writing a rulebook and managing a national club is difficult. Being a parent is difficult, but that doesn’t mean I can use that as an excuse to be a poor parent. Neither can HQ use it as an excuse to put out a product for it’s customers that is still mediocre at best.

I’ve said my peace. I can either play by the rules or take my marbles and go home. Or I can start my own game… hmmm…

Joe

IDPA# A18887

Edited: Removed statement from original quote so that the entire message would be within the forum guidelines.

[pisgahrifle]

Preach it! Just make sure when you gather up your marbles you find a big enough bag- i had to chase mine all over the place before I left .

[rhino]

The crux of the whole problem is Berryville’s refusal to understand the protocol or etiquette required for a rulebook of this caliber. Without being to critical, an international organization needs to have WORLD CLASS definitions and use appropriate language that would hold up in a court of law.

Bravo! Bravissimo!

I tried to say the same thing earlier, but you said it better.

Aside from the "one step forward; two steps back" this has become, I still can't get past the knee pad thing. Either ban then or make them okay. This crap about them being okay only if they are hidden and some sensitive person can't see them and have their aesthetic sensibilities offended is just pathetic.

PATHETIC.

[melman_1]

One thing that was changed with this FTN vs the LGB FTN is that two -3 doesnt give you enough points to avoid the FTN as it used to do. I think that is why they changed it. It just wasn't worded very well.

[GRD]

One thing that was changed with this FTN vs the LGB FTN is that two -3 doesnt give you enough points to avoid the FTN as it used to do. I think that is why they changed it.

This is correct.

It just wasn't worded very well.

Agreed.

- Gabe

[Duane Thomas]

To bad you can't use your carry gear in idpa...... and need to buy special "idpa competition" equ.

I do use my carry gear in IDPA. And USPSA Production.

[Duane Thomas]

Really? I had no idea that breaking the pelvic girdle causes the body to collapse under its own weight, hence causing a cesation of mobility. I thought the drill was used just 'cause it hade a neat name. Of course, I should have known better than to listen to the instructors, because being cops they wouldn't have known that any human being can take several 230s to the "groonies" and still be a pain-free fightin' machine (albeit and immobile one), despite bleeding out and suffering from intestinal injuries that release digestive fluids into the lower abdominus. That's what cops get for listening to doctors! You should write a book setting them all straight!

pisgahrifle, I wrote a fairly long post responding to your comments, but then I deleted it because I realized I was in violation of the rule Brian has posted in his Forum Guidelines stating:

Intent

This Forum is for firearm, technique, and conceptual discussions applicable to training and competition. (And various unrelated topics.) ;-)

While the occasional defensive shooting post is not prohibited, in general, defensive shooting discussions or debates are discouraged.

If anyone follows the rules, it should be a moderator, natch. And I can understand that rule, since discussions of self-defense over the Internet invariably, swiftly degenerate into macho BS, insults, and name calling. None of which have any place on brianenos.com. I will just say that I actually have "written a book." It's called The Truth About Handguns (Paladin Press, 1997). It contains a 40-page chapter on "stopping power" that addresses much of what you mention.

Having said that, we need to focus here, people. I find the topic of self-defense with a handgun fascinating myself (it shows, right?) but the topic under discussion is the IDPA Final-Version Rule Book, not debates over "stopping zones" on the human body.

[Duane Thomas]

Flame away. I have thick skin.

Actually, we don't flame at brianenos.com. To quote some more from the Forum Guidelines (which I know everyone has read and lives by):

Attitude

Please be polite. Or if not polite, at least respectful. Please – no antagonistic or quarrelsome tones.

Failure to follow this guideline will get your post nuked.