slowsure Posted February 2, 2005 Share Posted February 2, 2005 Ok I have been watching this thread to see the MULTI-GUN rule scoring changes. I have great interest in this as I have been put in charge of running our local club 3-gun matches. I originally wanted to run a USPSA match so that if any of our local guys/gals wanted to go to another club or big match the rules would be the same. I read the provisional addendum rules. Whoa Nellie!!! Stage gun declaration? Only A hits for other that declared gun? Can’t move more than a yard (American Standard Version of a meter) away from grounded weapon? No thanks I’ll use time plus points down, add the penalties make some rules on division guns and run with it. Now I’m not saying time plus is the way to go. But much much easier to use. This has all been covered here before. My point here is the scoring has got to be easy to use or the little guy (me) wont use it. The scoring should not dictate stage design to the point where 1/3 of the targets may be dictated by scoring. I’m all about easy! If I can add/subtract a few points at the scoring end and it come out fair for everybody (san angelo score) OK Good. Bring it. From the bottom of the 3-gun world (grass roots if you will) what about this: Would it be better to change the competitive division’s rules? Open-Major and Minor (2 divisions) = Declare major or minor all three guns. Open class rules would apply to all 3 guns. Scored either major or minor whatever is declared. Limited-Major and Minor (2 divisions) = Declare major or minor all three guns. Limited class rules would apply to all 3 guns. Scored either major or minor whatever is declared. This division would cover “He Man/Heavy Metal” (Limited Major would need a rule about ~.45 acp and up for the handgun and shot gun pump rules). Tactical-Major and Minor (2 divisions) = Declare major or minor all three guns. Tactical class rules would apply to all 3 guns. Scored either major or minor whatever is declared. This division would cover the popular one scope on rifle people in major no less. Now you have 6 divisions. Too many? I don’t know this but covers most combinations of “normal” 3-gun I see here local and you are Major or Minor for all targets. If you don’t find a lot of people shooting in one of the divisions…dump it. Is this too simple? I’m I missing something here? (OK Eric W I’m lying flat on my back, arms straight up holding sharp daggers in each hand. Come getcha some!) I’ll remain open minded. The guy shooting Minor rifle, Major pistol, Major shotgun (probably the most common combo, myself included) will need to do something. Either download pistol and live with the Major shotgun or move up to major rifle. Lots of options here but workable, I would rather have the options than being pigeon holed as is now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benny hill Posted February 2, 2005 Share Posted February 2, 2005 Slowsure, it would be better to use Mr. Mc Coy's scoreing, it's a lot like me, simple. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3GunF1Guy Posted February 3, 2005 Share Posted February 3, 2005 In my club I WILL NOT use USPSA rules if you have to declare all major or all minor for all 3 guns. At the match we had on Jan 29th we 18 shooters and all of them shot a 12ga shotgun and a 223 rifle with a mix of pistols. This includes all 3 classes (Open, Limited, Scoped Tactical). Why use a scoring system that, I think, everyone will dislike. We need to allow both major and minor mixed of guns without the "A" zone limitation. After I wrote this I thought, HEY the "A" zone limitation might not be a bad idea. If we use the replaceable A zone only paper targets for 3-gun matches it would work really well. As a matter of fact the EZ win score software is good to go as is. It is fast to score (staple up a new paper after each shooter), and easy to score. Scott Peterson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bgary Posted February 3, 2005 Share Posted February 3, 2005 I WILL NOT use USPSA rules if you have to declare all major or all minor for all 3 guns Yup. Me neither It was an idea that we (the USPSA Board) considered for a moment and pretty quickly discarded. It is a way of "making the problem go away", but it isn't really a solution. What we are working to do is make it so Power Factor is respected", without making it a nightmare for competitors, course-designers or stats people. I think the San Angelo approach accomplishes this. HEY the "A" zone limitation might not be a bad idea Yeah, we tried it at the 2004 Nationals. It worked. But it was a pain in the #$$ for the setup crews. And the shooters didn't much like it either. It is certainly an *option*, but... I think we're on track with some better (more flexible) solutions. Bruce Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricW Posted February 3, 2005 Share Posted February 3, 2005 You know, time plus scoring wouldn't be so objectionable to me if D hits were excluded. Neutralized = 1A or 2C or better. That would make it less of a hose fest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slowsure Posted February 3, 2005 Share Posted February 3, 2005 I here ya Benny. Like I said I’m all about easy! If I can add/subtract a few points at the scoring end and it come out fair for everybody (san angelo score) OK Good. Bring it. If the scoring software can handle puting the shooters Major or Minor in once and not on every stage. I'm good with that. Matches I run are time plus but only one division. This makes it real simple. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kimel Posted February 3, 2005 Share Posted February 3, 2005 Why not make it 4 points to neutralize a target however you get there? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wakal Posted February 4, 2005 Author Share Posted February 4, 2005 Because that is not USPSA scoring. "...best two hits on paper..." I like USPSA's scoring. I've shot lots of varients...time plus, one A or two hits, points of varying value...and I'd rather stick with USPSA format for...well, USPSA matches. Now that we are talking rules, I want this rule deleted: SHOTGUN 5.2.5.3 "Unless specified in a written stage briefing, or unless required by a Range Officer, the position of allied equipment must not be moved or changed by a competitor during a match. Any belt, or belts, intended to be used at any time during a match, must be worn for the start of each stage of the match." And since that rule was not followed at the 2004 USPSA 3-Gun Nationals...as competitors tailored their gear for the various stages...I want proceedurals retroactive for everyone! Alex Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slowsure Posted February 4, 2005 Share Posted February 4, 2005 I have PM’d jkmccoy and want to try the San Angelo “system” @ our next 3-gun. If it is the best thing since texas toast then I’ll stick to it. If not I’ll post what I think. IMHO I think we (as long time USPSA shooters) are being too narrow minded about scoring. 3-gun is not pistol shooting. USPistolSA scoring probably shouldn’t work for 3-gun if you think about it. I agree with others here that DVC is about the best way to judge/score a match. If you can get the DVC into existing or new Winscore 3-gun scoring, good, lets do it but don’t rule out time plus scoring. Time plus definitely has merit in that it is very easy to score on the range. The down side of time plus is that you don’t have major/minor penalties/advantages. If you can get the “Power” part right with time plus I think that would the easiest way to go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SinistralRifleman Posted February 9, 2005 Share Posted February 9, 2005 The thing I like about all the non-sanctioned USPSA 3 Gun matches is they are more free to adapt, innovate, and overcome problems. I think USPSA may continually revise the rules in attempts to make everyone happy, but this will never happen. Different shooters in different areas of the country like to shoot differently...the 3 gun matches I have been to in different states reflect the tastes and ideas of the locals. 3 Gun has so many variables in terms of equipment, stage design, facilities available, staff available to run matches, and LOCAL LAWS effecting what equipment is available for shooters to legally use I do not believe that one governing body can say "there is one way to do things and it is our way." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kimel Posted February 9, 2005 Share Posted February 9, 2005 Uhh...Slowsure...the "P" in USPSA stands for "Practical", not "Pistol". Or were you trying to be funny? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slowsure Posted February 9, 2005 Share Posted February 9, 2005 Uhh...Slowsure...the "P" in USPSA stands for "Practical", not "Pistol". Just trying to point out that I dont think when EZ win score was written the 3-gun side of scoring was even considerd. Just the pistol element. Who knew at the time it was written that people would want to shoot more than 1 gun on a stage? We are trying to make it work but maybe we should consider something totally different. (pardon the Monty Python line) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chendersby Posted February 27, 2005 Share Posted February 27, 2005 Hello everyone, This is my ceremonial first posting! so be kind Barring any last minute write in campain in the up comming Area 2 director elections I will be the new 2 director as I am the only one crazy enough to run. As a 3 gunner I am going to make it my priority to get USPSA 3gun headed in the right direction. Also get the scoring system in line with what shooters and match directors want to do in their matches. I realize that getting things to change is going to be a battle. If you all want change in USPSA then every one needs to let their Directors know and if that does not work then elect directors that reflect what you want. see you at SMM3gun. I know a lot of you and those I don't please introduce yourself at the match. I an the 6'7" guy without the tatoos and accent! Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ErikW Posted February 27, 2005 Share Posted February 27, 2005 Chris, thanks for stepping up to the plate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bgary Posted February 28, 2005 Share Posted February 28, 2005 Chris - Good to hear from you (and thanks for the email) I'm planning to be at SMM3G either Saturday or Sunday - not sure which yet (need to juggle a couple of work commitments). I'll be the round guy wearing the USPSA shirt - hope to have a chance to chat! Bruce Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benny hill Posted February 28, 2005 Share Posted February 28, 2005 Bruce, if you see triangle shooting shirts, stop by to say hi, benny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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