Converting a .38 super to 9major

[Foxbat]

WOW! I can't believe the number of complete MORONS here

Call me old school, but I find it particularly distaseful when rudeness comes from a lady.

MikeRush - as the ranking member of the MORON community, I would like to nominate you the Moron-in-Training!

On extractor - when I started doing this, some folks have warned me that after some shots the extractor tooth would break off. I simply have not seen this happen. In fact, the only Aftec that I have even seen break, did so at one of the spring holes, and in a 9mm gun.

Foxbat, I have to admit, I am a little disappointed with my standing. I thought I had already achieved the rank of "complete MORON" as insinuated by the post. How can I enter into full fellowship of the brotherhood?

Man, I wonder how some of these people would feel about fireforming Ackley Improved cases or other wildcats at rifle velocities and pressures.

It's not over until it's over...

Point well taken, many new things that we now rotinely use, did not have any "official" approval.

[snootworks]

Looks like I'll try cooking up some 9major loads for my Super gun.

[pitvpr]

Looks like I'll try cooking up some 9major loads for my Super gun.

You sir are a moron-in training, I would also like to join

[ctay]

Please, for those that are adamantly against the idea - can you tell me what the SAFETY issue is? I'm not being snarky - I honestly can't think of a safety issue.

It is possible that you can wear out the barrel or possibly the slide early - it seems unlikely but it is possible. What I can't find is any legitimate safety issue that wouldn't already exist by shooting major power factor 9mm in a 9mm chamber.

[Parallax3D]

WOW! I can't believe the number of complete MORONS here who would advise a person to shoot a round in a gun that it was not designed for! This is NOT a .38 Special in a .357 we're talking about.

You know what? A .308 will chamber in a .30-06, but you wouldn't want to actually try firing it! (Unless you don't value your gun or possibly your life!)

WHY is shooting a 9mm Major in a .38 Super not a good idea?

1. 9mm is shorter and will headspace on the extractor, not the case mouth and chamber. The extractor is not designed to hold the round and headspace it.

2. .38 Super is a straight-walled cartridge, 9mm is a tapered cartridge. That means that a .38 Super chamber is also larger in diameter, not just length.

3. The pressures involved are FAR beyond SAMMI specs.

Just because you've gotten away with doing it without a bad result thus far, that doesn't mean it's not a bad idea, and that you should recommend others do the same.

Don't "poke the bear." Sooner or later, the bear is going to get pissed and eat you!

The inevitable return of the name calling and caps lock. I'm pretty sure you wouldn't call me a moron to my face, but keyboards grant so much knowledge and confidence!

I'd address your points individually, but they have already been addressed. 9 and 38 super were never designed operate at the pressures we subject them to in order to reach major power factor.

I'm not going to recommend that you do it, or that you load 9 Major, or even that you reload at all. I'm only saying I have done it, and see no reason why my life is/was in danger. Unless the above referenced bear is seeking vengeance for all the kittens I am personally responsible for having killed due to firing 9 major out of a super chamber I'm pretty sure I am safe. Nobody has adequately explained the theoretical mechanism by which my life would be claimed, or the catastrophic event head spacing on the extractor.

There are people who say if you reload you will blow up guns, kill kittens, and die. Of the people who reload there are plenty of people who say loading 9 major you will blow up guns, kill kittens and die. I guess it boils down to how comfortable you are with killing kittens and dying.

Thank you for sharing your experience related to this matter.

You want to bet that I won't call you a moron to your face? You'd be wrong. What are you going to do, hit a girl for calling you a name? Big man!!

Edited October 17, 2014 by Parallax3D

[Parallax3D]

Please, for those that are adamantly against the idea - can you tell me what the SAFETY issue is? I'm not being snarky - I honestly can't think of a safety issue.

It is possible that you can wear out the barrel or possibly the slide early - it seems unlikely but it is possible. What I can't find is any legitimate safety issue that wouldn't already exist by shooting major power factor 9mm in a 9mm chamber.

I'm pretty sure that I already addressed that. I can't help it if you refuse to listen.

[ctay]

Please, for those that are adamantly against the idea - can you tell me what the SAFETY issue is? I'm not being snarky - I honestly can't think of a safety issue.

It is possible that you can wear out the barrel or possibly the slide early - it seems unlikely but it is possible. What I can't find is any legitimate safety issue that wouldn't already exist by shooting major power factor 9mm in a 9mm chamber.

I'm pretty sure that I already addressed that. I can't help it if you refuse to listen.

No, you said:

1. 9mm is shorter and will headspace on the extractor, not the case mouth and chamber. The extractor is not designed to hold the round and headspace it.

How is it unsafe if the round headspaces on the extractor? How does that make it unsafe? IE what can happen that is unsafe?

2. .38 Super is a straight-walled cartridge, 9mm is a tapered cartridge. That means that a .38 Super chamber is also larger in diameter, not just length.

Are you saying that the taper on the 9mm leaves enough room in a 38S chamber to cause a safety issue? How does that differ from a U-die undersizing brass for reliability reasons?

3. The pressures involved are FAR beyond SAMMI specs.

Isn't 9 major far beyond SAMMI specs in a 9mm chamber too? Is it more beyond SAMMI specs when in a 38S chamber?

There is no need to be rude - Just help me understand where you are coming from.

[kneelingatlas]

WHY is shooting a 9mm Major in a .38 Super not a good idea?

1. 9mm is shorter and will headspace on the extractor, not the case mouth and chamber. The extractor is not designed to hold the round and headspace it.

2. .38 Super is a straight-walled cartridge, 9mm is a tapered cartridge. That means that a .38 Super chamber is also larger in diameter, not just length.

3. The pressures involved are FAR beyond SAMMI specs.

Parallax,

I'd like to address your points one at a time:

1. I agree a 9mm case in 38 super chamber is held in place by the extractor, but are you arguing that 38 super case in a 38 super chamber is not? If so I suggest you measure some 38 super cases, compare them to 38 super chambers and reconsider your position.

2. True, the SAAMI specifications for a 9mm case are 0.004" smaller in diameter at the neck and 0.007" larger at the base, but considering I use the same bullets and crimping die in both, reality may prove differently. If you're interested I'll be happy to measure some of my loaded rounds and get back to you.

3. I'd hate to be so presumptuous as to say most USPSA hand loaders load beyond SAAMI specifications for pressure, but I know I do. Not just for 9 major and 38 super major either, but I imagine if I were to use QuickLoad to estimate chamber pressures I would find my 40 major loads using Clays to be even further outside SAAMI specifications than my 9 major loads using SP2.

Edited October 17, 2014 by kneelingatlas

[kneelingatlas]

Beat me to it ctay

[MikeRush]

Parallax3D: Whoa, I don't see where the hitting a girl part comes in. I would never. I'm just surprised that you actually would call a complete stranger a moron to their face for having a different opinion than you do.

That wasn't a challenge, but rather a lamentation of how some people are so impolite on the internet compared to in person. Apparently you are at least consistent and I commend you for that. Also, I am not a very big man. My belt size is probably 4 inches smaller than the average USPSA shooter.

Back on topic- I've had plenty of guys tell me I'm crazy for using Mobil 1 to lube my pistols. It wasn't *designed* for that, ya know? Only gun oil should be used on guns. I also know GMs that have told me they use Mobil 1 too.

To the bold among you asking questions and taking measurements, good for you! I'm not claiming to have anything figured out but anecdotal experience seems to suggest there may be some merit to the idea. Main issue I can see is the kittens, and potential issues between USPSA and PETA.

[Foxbat]

One particular concern expressed here was that the 9mm round has larger base diameter than 38 Super, therefore it will not fit in the chamber.

Here is the hard experience. It is true that the 38 Super is the straight walled cartridge, and its base diameter is slightly smaller. As result, the 9mm will usually NOT fit in the 38 Super gauge.

But the situation is different with real guns. The chambers of many, if not most, open guns are generous in their dimensions.

For instance, it is a common wisdom that Glocks have large chamber. However, the rounds that will not chamber in Glocks, go without ANY problems into the SVI.

So far I have not seen a SINGLE 9mm Major round that would fail to feed in the Open gun... but I certainly have seen some that refused to work in Glocks.

On sensitive subject of PETA - I routinely pet my neighbor's dog, so I have plenty of points there!

Edited October 17, 2014 by Foxbat

[jcc7x7]

Enjoyed the info and gonna try some 9mm in my super comp just to upset some of the other folks (LOL)

If it works in my guns I'm gonna figure out where it hits and use it at raining day matches and the like

Thanks for the info and the input

P>S> I'm from the era of when we were blowing up 38 supers with regularity. All we did was get steel plates to put behind our grips and bigger shooting glasses!! We kept testing and shooting until we figured it out and found out how to make it all work. ITs just amazing what happens when folks try stuff and keep trying until they figure it out. Then all of a sudden its a new idea!!!!

Think I may of joined the Moron club. Do I get a card!!!

Edited October 18, 2014 by jcc7x7

[zmanktm]

I had a STI major 9 shorty that cracked the slide after only 8000 rounds so what was I going to do with all that 9 major ammo? I pulled my old reliable Caspian 38 Super that has close to 200k rounds through it out off the safe ,changed the extractor and ran several mags of

Major 9 through without a hitch. I will run it in practice for a while at least until I empty all that 9 major loaded ammo.

[shooter.860]

I decided to just find a 9mm major, so I lucked out getting one off gun broker.

Barely shot by somebody I've seen match hear a Connecticut.

[mjmagee67]

I might have to try 9 Major in my 38 Super gun when I run out of 38 Super brass. I do love being part of a club and I hear the MORONS are a great group of people.

[shred]

How do people suppose the early .38 Supers worked when they didn't headspace on the case mouth and were held by the extractor for ignition ???

Ten seconds looking at the SAAMI specs shows that traditional .38 Super headspaces off the rim cut in the chamber. That's why it has that goofy semi-rim. They weren't held by the extractor for ignition.

Firing 9x19 in a tight .38 chamber is a recipe for stuck cases and OOB ignition. Max in-spec 9x19 rounds are .391" at the back (and many are larger than that since the chamber is larger and that part doesn't get resized). .38 Super minimum SAAMI chamber is .389". If your chamber is on the upper half of spec (+.004" is max) then 9 probably won't get stuck as long as it's clean.

[GrumpyOne]

Alright, enough of the name calling...anymore and this gets shut down.

[GrumpyOne]

And for what its worth, Dave at STI used to recommend that upon receiving your new 38 super open gun that you run several boxes of 9x23 Ranger ammo through it to break it in.

[meanzbullet]

I have a 38 super limited gun that I have fired an ass load of 9 minor out of. So many for so long I kind of forgot it was a super barrel. Same aftec with no issues. It still shoots small groups.

[Foxbat]

A guy I know from another forum claims to have shot 70,000 rounds of .40 ammo through his Glock 20.

I have done close to 1000 rounds that way.

[MikeRush]

How do people suppose the early .38 Supers worked when they didn't headspace on the case mouth and were held by the extractor for ignition ???

Ten seconds looking at the SAAMI specs shows that traditional .38 Super headspaces off the rim cut in the chamber. That's why it has that goofy semi-rim. They weren't held by the extractor for ignition.

Firing 9x19 in a tight .38 chamber is a recipe for stuck cases and OOB ignition. Max in-spec 9x19 rounds are .391" at the back (and many are larger than that since the chamber is larger and that part doesn't get resized). .38 Super minimum SAAMI chamber is .389". If your chamber is on the upper half of spec (+.004" is max) then 9 probably won't get stuck as long as it's clean.

This is not meant to be argumentative at all -I am simply trying to understand. You know a metric ton more about chambers than I do. I get the potential for extraction issues, depending on your barrel, extractor, brass, etc, but how would the 9 increase the risk for OOB ignition? I could see the gun failing to return to battery if you had a tight 38 chamber and a fat 9 case, but would that be any different than a moly 40 that gets stuck just out of battery or similar? The sear should not release the hammer with the gun out of battery, and if it were to, the hammer would likely be prevented from a full strike on the firing pin due to the geometry of the firing pin stop (in 19/2011 style gun, at least. AFAIK nobody makes a 38 super squirt gun to run 9 brass through).

Much respect, only sincere curiosity.

[mrsig03]

A guy I know from another forum claims to have shot 70,000 rounds of .40 ammo through his Glock 20.

I have done close to 1000 rounds that way.

I'm a newbie on this forum and very interested in this subject. For all you that are doing this, what OAL are you loading your 9mm when using a 38sc. Thank you

[Steve RA]

Way back when I tried it in my CMC (STI) .38 Super and just loaded them as long as I could and still keep the bullet in the case, never had any feeding problems with it that way. Must admit I probably didn't shoot over 2 or 3 hundred as it was merely an experiment to see if it would work as I had been told it was stupid to try it. Maybe I'm a Charter Member of the Moron Club? I'm sorry I can't tell you the exact length of the loaded rounds as it's been a long time and I never retained any for posterity.

[kneelingatlas]

I've never loaded specifically for a 38 chamber, just used my regular 9 load: 115RN @ 1.170".

[mrsig03]

Thanks...shot 9 major in 1.170-1.175 today...no issues. Also tried my Glock 9major loads and it worked too. Accuracy was about the same as shooting 38sc. But not as good, close enough though. Fun trying, admit I was nervous for the first few shoots. Thanks

Load was 124g HS-6 at 8.1g. Might need to bump up a bit since the comp as design during the 175 PF days. Not too sure how much more powder I can stuff in and how much longer I can load. Thoughts?