6 inch Limited guns

[pitvpr]

I apologize up front if this has been discussed at length, if so please close this and point me in the right direction.

I'm new to the 2012 platform and I have a lightened 6" FGW, fluted barrel, tr-top, slide cutouts etc... I find that it's very light compared to and Edge for example. And people have commented that It has much more muzzle flip than their 5" Edge/Infinity etc...

How would you recommend I load for it and what spring weight. Some folks have told me 165g at major, a fast powder and 15lb spring will make it shoot flatter. I've been using 180g bullets and IMR 7625 for major.

If the heavier guns shoot flatter than the lighter guns, what' the reason for all the extra work to have them lightened?

[DRobson]

Some of your problems could be your powder of choice. I've seen many comments on here about 7625 being harsh with a 180 at major power factor.

[fmj3]

Recoil is only half of the equation, the slide returning to battery is the other half.

A lighter recoil spring and a lighter slide will generally speed up acquiring the front sight for follow-up shots, IMO.

[MikeRush]

A 6" will generally have more apparent flip than a 5" as its extended length will result in the barrel reaching a higher point relative to "flat" at a given angle.

6" guns are typically lightened considerably both to get slide weight down to cycle acceptably fast and to improve overall balance in the hand. Lots of people argue about light long guns vs short heavy guns. I've spent way too much time debating the subject but there are those who believe flat is overrated, and that the speed at which the sight returns to an acceptable sight picture trumps softness or flatness.

As far as loads, I've been loving 165s with my light six but my slide is light enough that I still can get decent slide speed out of 200s. My gunsmith recommended I try out the 200s so I am giving that a run now. A few of the local 6 shooters tell me that they are loving the 200s with 3.5 GRS or less of powders like TG or Clays.

I have found my 6 requires a bit more from me in terms of grip. It will punish me if I get sloppy or grip it inconsistently, but the precision and ease of transitions are worth it in my mind.

[EngineerEli]

I shoot a 5.4" infinity so I'm close to you. They key is to have as heavy of a gun as you prefer but only having the weight in non reciprocating parts. (frame, grip, mag well, guide rod, barrel sort of because it does move a little) The slide you want light which it sounds like yours is. I have heard about a lot of people shooting 6" guns saying they like the lighter 165 gr bullets, but before I even did that I would experiment with springs, which can make a world of difference. I:m not sure if you were talking recoil springs or hammer springs for the 15 lb. That would be about right for a hammer spring or a 17 lb. I would try a 10, 11 and 12 lb spring (maybe even a 9) and see if the flip gets any better. The longer guns with do seem to have a bit of a feel of wobble some times depending on how they are sprung. The last part of the equation which I'm not saying is your problem but could be part of it is grip. If I pay attention to it i can keep my gun very flat, but if I start blazing and not paying attention to the fundamentals, my gun starts flipping and flopping all over the place!

Just my opinion, thoughts, and experience.

[2MoreChains]

Have you tried a different powder? Something along the lines of VV N320, Titegroup or Solo1000 with the same 180 gr bullet may give you a different recoil impulse. When people were comparing how your gun recoils to their 5", were they using your ammo or theirs?

My first custom 2011 I spec'd a 6" built on a Tactical frame for the extra non-reciprocating weight of the longer dust cover and rail. The only slide lightening I had done was a tri-topped slide and initially just had a narrow (.25" wide) coffin cut on the flat top of the slide. After shooting it for a bit I asked my GS to widen the coffin cut to the full width of the flat top (resulting in about .375"W) and extend it the length of the slide from the bbl lugs to the front sight. That seemed to feel pretty good after shooting it for a while so we stopped mucking around with it and that's where I am today. IMO it shoots pretty flat, or maybe that's because I am used to it. Mine weighs about 38 oz without a mag, so probably an ounce or two heavier than yours due to the longer DC/rail and less slide lightening cuts.

When I first got the gun I tested a range of springs from 10, 11, 12, 13 and 14 lbs and settled on a 12 which seemed to give me the best feel (and HF score when doing Bill Drills) at 7 yds). That's paired up to my load using a 180 gr moly bullet with 4.5 grs of VVN320. That load is about 176 PF out of my 6", but its the same load I use for my 5" guns to avoid having two different loads to confuse me with.

Ever since taking a Stoeger class a couple of years ago I've been trying to grip harder (i.e. crush it) and that has made a difference especially on the tougher / farther shots.

[SilverBolt]

7625 is a pretty slow power for .40 major. Try some N320 with the same bullets. My 6" weighs in at 37oz (no mag) and is soft and flat.

[fastshooter03]

My experience is that the only benefit of the 6" is the longer sight radius.

The 5" full dustys r faster and flatter but a lot easier to miss quicker.

Found that out early on with video review.

And I know all about missing very quickly.....

Nick

[MikeRush]

My experience is that the only benefit of the 6" is the longer sight radius.

The 5" full dustys r faster and flatter but a lot easier to miss quicker.

Found that out early on with video review.

And I know all about missing very quickly.....

Nick

When you say faster, I am assuming you mean splits- or did you shoot it overall faster? I've found I have better splits with a heavier 5" (from 7-12 yards or so, closer than that or further than that the 6 is as good or better for me), better transitions with the lighter 6", and as it sits I gain more on the transitions than I lose on the splits. That said I am still getting used to the gun, I've only been shooting it for a month or so.

[pitvpr]

Hey guys, thank for the input, really helpful info here. I will try to answer some of the points, comments that come to mind. First off Powder, yes, I wish I had some clays, titegroup or solo1000, unfortunately I do not, but have been looking hard. If someone has an 8lb jug of Clays or N320 lying around they want to sell, please hit me up!

As for spring weight, yes I’m referring to the recoil spring, and I have done Bill Drills to test this, using 15#, 13# and 11# spring weight, and have found hat even though times are equivalent, (2sec avg) my group gets much tighter with a 15lb spring over a lighter spring.

As for the rest, I do in fact use a decently tight grip on the gun, and have no issues running very respectable splits with the current setup. I have tried 200g bullets, but find that with the 165g bullets I can manage faster splits with closer to snake eye taps.

I would say that before this gun I was hovering around C class but after getting this gun and getting used to it, I have received a B class, and have consistently placed in the top 5 at my club matches.

One of the things that I immediately improved upon was accuracy, the longer sight radius has helped me tremendously due to aging eyes.

My line of questioning is brought upon not from myself since I personally have nothing to compare too, my line of questioning is more from OTHER peoples comments who have shot my gun and have noticed that “ in their opinion” has more “kick” than a similar 5” Edge type gun.

At this point, although I’m happy with the current setup, I’m just wondering what others think, positives and negatives from those of you who have tried both.

Thanks, and really appreciate all the input.

[MikeRush]

My line of questioning is brought upon not from myself since I personally have nothing to compare too, my line of questioning is more from OTHER peoples comments who have shot my gun and have noticed that “ in their opinion” has more “kick” than a similar 5” Edge type gun.

That is a lot more subjective, but a few points to consider- if the overall weight is lighter than an Edge, and it likely is- the perception of recoil will likely be slightly sharper with the 6". That said, we are likely talking about a difference of maybe 2 or 3 oz, which is a pretty small difference.

If you take the same load in someone's 5" and shoot it in your gun it will most likely be making a higher PF in your gun.

You are using a powder that is less than ideal for 40 major. I would propose that a fair comparison would be using a more suitable powder, loaded to PF+ 5 or so for a buffer, compared to the same powder type/bullet weight/PF in a 5. The 6" again should take less powder, and a load that is dialed in on a 6 should be pretty sweet and relatively soft- maybe even softer to your hands than a 5". That is where you will end up, eventually. Once you get your hands on a more appropriate powder and work up a load I don't think you will worry about it. With a 180 or 200 it should probably be 4 grs or less. A bit more with the 165s- I'm loading 4.4 grs of E3 with 165s which has made major every time I chrono although I don't know that E3 is a great powder for 165s.

Finally- the timer, and more importantly, the hit factor doesn't lie! Feel can be so deceptive. There are 5"s and 6"s, light and heavy, plastic and steel, etc on the Super Squad and all are capable of turning in great times. Vogel went from a lighter 6" to a heavier 5.3" and did slightly better this year than last year- is that the gun, training, stage layout- who knows? What works best for you might not be what works best for someone else.

[pitvpr]

Wow, Mike...thanks! Very well said.

anyone has some n320, clays, titegroup or solo I can buy today?

[Glk21C]

To the OP, have you tried asking Bobby at FGW his thoughts?

[pitvpr]

Yes, I have

He said to try different spring+load combinations and I would be sure to find one that works for me.

Kinda what I'm doing, along with getting input from the best shooting community in the world.

[Aircooled6racer]

Hello: I shoot a 6" gun that is very light. I have tried bullets from 155gr to 220gr. My favorite powder is Tite Group and yes I have tried others. I like the 165 grain Montana Gold bullets the best. The pistol tracks very quickly kinda like an open pistol. I use a 12.5lb ISMI recoil spring, 17lb ISMI mainspring and tune the firing pin stop. Mine is a bushing barreled gun but I have shot a 6" bull barreled gun for a while as well. Building a 5.5" bull barreled gun right now to try some things on. I would check your splits at 3, 7 and 10 yards to see how the gun is hitting for you. You may have to adapt to the 6" gun a little bit. To say a 6" gun is slower than a 5" go is just not true if tuned properly. Look at TGO and what he can do with one or two. Thanks, Eric

[pitvpr]

Cool, thanks Eric...! I'm trying to get ahold of some Titegroup, I will definitely give your setup a whirl.

[sturgefish]

Too much spring.

[Postal Bob]

The recoil flip is more apparent in a 6" gun due to the longer sight radius. In my Brazos gun I run a 12lb recoil spring, and shoot 180 gr heads. The slide cycles extremely fast. Faster than I'm able to shoot accurately. And I put in a tungsten guide rod to add more weight in front and keep any apparent muzzle flip down. And the added weight has no affect on slide speed.

Edited October 9, 2014 by Postal Bob

[2011BLDR]

First issue to clarify when talking recoil spring rates is whether they are standard rate or variable rate springs. Example a 12 LB standard is 12 at rest and through the entire cycle of the slide. A 12LB variable is about 7LB in initial compression building to the 12 LB only at full compression and releases the tension in reverse. Same gun will track and return vary differently between the two spring types of the same weight.

I have shot .40 in limited since the day the division came in to this sport and don’t consider IMR 7625 a slow powder. Of all the limited powerders I have used it is only slower than:

· 231

The 231 showed presser signs in .40 Major even loaded long for me. All of the other powders I have used:

· A1

· BA9

· Green Dot

· WSF

· 540

· WAP

· AA5

· N330

· N340 (Current)

Are slower than IMR 7625.

You are welcome to try both my 6” and my 5” LWD guns at Sundays match.

Kevin

[fastshooter03]

Yes splits.

Nick

[pitvpr]

Thanks Kevin

Mr.Sturgefish, I will continue to look at varied springs, thanks for your input....

[Sandbagger123]

hope i am not hijacking this thread. i am shooting a FDC Edge. For me it seems a little heavy in the front. i have been looking for a SDC one. Are the 6" lightened one close to what a SDC would be in the front?

[MikeRush]

hope i am not hijacking this thread. i am shooting a FDC Edge. For me it seems a little heavy in the front. i have been looking for a SDC one. Are the 6" lightened one close to what a SDC would be in the front?

They can be as light or lighter. A bushing barreled 6" gun with lots of cuts can be lighter in the front than a 5" SDC bull barreled gun.

My last limited gun was a 5" bull barrel, short dust cover gun with a 10oz slide. I loved the balance! My new 6" comes close to the weight and has just a bit more in the nose than the 5" but perceptibly less than an edge.

You could also consider an aluminum guide rod (I use the Briley, Sean at Power Factor Shooting on the forum sells them), flute the barrel, and/or cut back or hollow out the dust cover if you wanted it to be lighter in the nose, but you still wouldn't have the extra sight radius and reduced charge weights of the 6".

[pitvpr]

Everyone can relax, have Titegoup coming to save the day, all is well. As you were./

[blaster113]

when I was running my light 6" I preferred the feel of 165s vs 180s being pushed by N320. In fact my best major match scores so far have come when I had my light 6". Had to put in a tungsten guide rod and steel mainspring housing to control it but once I did my scores improved big time.