Limited equipment rules

[kurtm]

Since it was asked, The old S.O.F. rule for Shotgun was 22" barrel max and tube could be no more than 1" past end of barrel. ( this allowed for a 9 round tube)

For iron sight rifles they had to weigh no more than 9.5 pounds WITH SLING! for minor, and 10.5 for major, there were no magazine restrictions.

For pistol, had to be a 5" or shorter barrel. had to make 180 power factor to be considered major and 140mm mags were ok.

I find it interesting that the ideas being proffered by some are more restrictive than the founding match of our sport.

For the record....leave limited alone, go back to screwing up He Man!

[Stlhead]

Sterling, to address your specific comment about magazine length first. The exact idea is that everyone's mags will then be the same length, or shorter. Removing the long mag advantage that you enjoy now would be one of the exact benefits of this rule change.Why should you get an advantage by being allowed to use a longer magazine to monopod off? The only reason I picked 30 is because it is the most common size, not to punish you.

1x optics seems to be a universally popular addition to limited. I shot limited before 1x, and will still shoot limited if 1x is taken out, but there are a lot of people shooting limited now who would not be if not for the 1x change. I think removing 1x would most certainly send a few guys packing, while I do not think the changes I am proposing would discourage anyone from playing.

Noe of these rules are "Needed", the entire limited division is not "Needed", this is a game we play, and I think it would be more fun with slightly different rules. We change the rules of our game, some times subtly, sometimes dramatically, on a regular and sometimes match to match basis. I think at least this change would not obsolete anyones guns, or cost anyone any money, and may improve the game.

Back to the shotgun. The reason that I think any of these rules are a good idea is to differentiate the LIMITED division by upholding "reasonable" restrictions. We can argue about what is reasonable, but I still maintain that the division would be better overall, and more fun with a few more equipment restrictions to set it apart from the scope tac crowd. Limiting the capacity of the shotgun is easy for competitors who do want to jump divisions often, is easily verifiable and not subject to any on the clock RO verification, and does not require anyone to even buy any new gear. I am not pushing for production here, no list, no holster restrictions, nothing that would even cause anyone much hassle.

Making some of the competitors equipment more similar will heat up competition more.

Now for the clincher, Sterling, you lost your vote on this by switching over to heavy optics. You should be worrying about powder puff 90 grain 308 loads, unless you are going to come back and shoot like a gentleman next season.........

[TyinTX]

How many shooters do you know that jump back between TACIRONS and TACOPS? And do they use the same guns?

I do all the time. Same guns, same gear, but I have an extra rifle with an 1-6x optic for the other division in case I want to shoot Optics.

I think these changes would be totally OK and widely accepted as long as you can use the same gear and shoot with reduced capacity.

30rds in a rifle magazine no matter the length

15rds in a pistol magazine no matter the length

8+1rds in a shotgun no matter the length

Plug it if you want to, or use longer mags if you want to, but download them appropriately

USPSA trusts Production shooters to download their guns and it works fine, we can do the same, and if you mess up ===> welcome to Open

The having looked at the rule book for USPSA and the silly rules like downloading magazines for production class is a big reason I shoot 3 gun. I own a pistol that completely stock holds 19, a Glock holds 17. In the end the 2 rounds only matter as long as there is a course of fire 19 rounds or shorter and I don't miss (not going to happen at the moment). Read the rules and make your selections for yourself on which gear you think will serve you best. Trying to make rules for the lowest mag capacity and artificially limiting a division just to say it is significantly different from a larger division doesn't seem to accomplish anything to me. I will in time get a second upper and will set up with a scope so that I can go play around with the big boys. Being able to use the same gear and a different optic is going to be a big plus. Limiting round capacity in my preferred division would just annoy me into not shooting limited at all.

[Stlhead]

Kurt, why would anyone want to change HM? It is perfect the way it is, but no one want to shoot it. I don't care about major or minor, or how much anything weights, what we do now, or what was done in the past or where. I am just proposing we discus modifying the rules of limited (a relatively small division that most think is a waste to even have) .

If the consensus thinks that a max capacity of 9+1 and only 8 +1 to start would make more sense then I would be amenable to that as well. Then I would not even need to plug my tube because that is what I have always run anyway. Like I said, I just wanted to start the discussion, I would not presume to know what is best for the sport,.

[kurtm]

Funny, My shotgun looks a lot more like a shotgun as well....not an off shore spin casting rig

It was the metaphorical you can screw with He-Man the most screwed with division in the history of the game!!

[Stlhead]

How many shooters do you know that jump back between TACIRONS and TACOPS? And do they use the same guns?

I do all the time. Same guns, same gear, but I have an extra rifle with an 1-6x optic for the other division in case I want to shoot Optics.

I think these changes would be totally OK and widely accepted as long as you can use the same gear and shoot with reduced capacity.

30rds in a rifle magazine no matter the length

15rds in a pistol magazine no matter the length

8+1rds in a shotgun no matter the length

Plug it if you want to, or use longer mags if you want to, but download them appropriately

USPSA trusts Production shooters to download their guns and it works fine, we can do the same, and if you mess up ===> welcome to Open

The having looked at the rule book for USPSA and the silly rules like downloading magazines for production class is a big reason I shoot 3 gun. I own a pistol that completely stock holds 19, a Glock holds 17. In the end the 2 rounds only matter as long as there is a course of fire 19 rounds or shorter and I don't miss (not going to happen at the moment). Read the rules and make your selections for yourself on which gear you think will serve you best. Trying to make rules for the lowest mag capacity and artificially limiting a division just to say it is significantly different from a larger division doesn't seem to accomplish anything to me. I will in time get a second upper and will set up with a scope so that I can go play around with the big boys. Being able to use the same gear and a different optic is going to be a big plus. Limiting round capacity in my preferred division would just annoy me into not shooting limited at all.

Then go play elsewhere because your pistol is already limited. You are allowed to have a magazine that is 140 mm long, that is a limit. The same limit is applied in scope tac. Want to play in a division without limits there is one for you. It's open. I am not advocating any changes to the pistol AT ALL, and only discussing changing the capacity of the shotgun AFTER the buzzer goes off, the rifle I am advocating we only have 30ish rounds in. USPSA pistol rules and any talk of production are not even on my radar. Feel free to fill that Glock up and blast away, you could even get some base pads and bump up your capacity, more power to you.

[Stlhead]

Kurt, I knew what you meant, but discussions with direct personal bickering seem to gather more emotional responses and are far more entertaining for the lurking readers. And after all, good entertainment is extremely hard to find these days. I just wish that a certain bronzed shooting god shot limited so he could give us his take on this issue. He still could...................

[DocMedic]

You Say 'Tomato', I say 'Tomato' , personally i would love to see a NASCAR approach to one of the divison for 3gun. Weren't they requiring all cars to go from 650HP to 525? If Tactical is Considered Drag Racing, and Open is F1, why not make limited into NASCAR. Heavy/He-man can be considered Auto-Cross

[TyinTX]

Then go play elsewhere because your pistol is already limited. You are allowed to have a magazine that is 140 mm long, that is a limit. The same limit is applied in scope tac. Want to play in a division without limits there is one for you. It's open. I am not advocating any changes to the pistol AT ALL, and only discussing changing the capacity of the shotgun AFTER the buzzer goes off, the rifle I am advocating we only have 30ish rounds in. USPSA pistol rules and any talk of production are not even on my radar. Feel free to fill that Glock up and blast away, you could even get some base pads and bump up your capacity, more power to you.

But I like playing in the kiddie pool that is limited now. I enjoy shooting with real irons or my 1x sight. I like my 40 round rifle mags and 9 round shotgun tube loaded to 8. Someday I will have my evil 140mm magazines and will forget how to reload on the clock completely.

Edited September 29, 2014 by TyinTX

[Moltke]

If you're going to limit rifle and shotgun capacities then why NOT limit pistol capacity too? I'm confused about what's bad about that idea? Reloading a pistol and a rifle is part of their mastery, but usually the only gun we ever reload on the clock is a shotgun.

[DocMedic]

If you're going to limit rifle and shotgun capacities then why NOT limit pistol capacity too?

Because its already limited to a 141mm mag size.

[TyinTX]

If you're going to limit rifle and shotgun capacities then why NOT limit pistol capacity too?

Because its already limited to a 141mm mag size.

Which is longer than any stock pistol mag I know of. So why not allow "extra capacity" in the other two guns as well? For example 35-48 round rifle magazines and 9-12 round shotgun tubes?

[SonOfSpartans]

Those still learning to shoot get more practice loading all the platforms than the rest of you. Let us be.

Those with young eyes and or perfect sight complaining about 1x may bite me.

There, was that enough personally invested banter?

Now for a reality check. I have only shot this game for a little while. In that short time I have been able to witness the guy show up to shoot Irons with his pump shotie and six round mag SCHOOL people shooting the shotgun sections with "better" or "fancier" guns n gear.

The message should be......... Welcome! Come shoot, have fun. Ask questions. And as Mark said, I really feel we should have a way of noting the performance of the "novice" shooter at matches.

[Moltke]

No, you've limited the length of the magazine, not limiting capacity, however its close and at some point one does affect the other.

What I'm saying is if the goal is to differentiate Limited division from TACOPS then lets do it. Currently the only difference is "no magnified optics"

The sport, game plans, shooting styles, etc would different if you actually decided to have capacity limits - and all the same gear can be used in both divisions as is if you just decide to download your extra hi-caps.

Floating between divisions is nice and something that many people, like myself, do regularly.

I shoot Limited often and would shoot a Limited capacity division immediately because it brings more to the spectrum of 3 gun.

ETA: I shoot Limited primarily and only this year tried TACOPS however would like to shoot both

Edited September 29, 2014 by Moltke

[dcloudy777]

For the record....leave limited alone, go back to screwing up He Man!

For what it's worth, Kurt, I was advocating splitting up TO (the biggest division), not the smaller division.

[Stlhead]

If you're going to limit rifle and shotgun capacities then why NOT limit pistol capacity too? I'm confused about what's bad about that idea? Reloading a pistol and a rifle is part of their mastery, but usually the only gun we ever reload on the clock is a shotgun.

No, you've limited the length of the magazine, not limiting capacity, however its close and at some point one does affect the other.

What I'm saying is if the goal is to differentiate Limited division from TACOPS then lets do it. Currently the only difference is "no magnified optics"

The sport, game plans, shooting styles, etc would different if you actually decided to have capacity limits - and all the same gear can be used in both divisions as is if you just decide to download your extra hi-caps.

Floating between divisions is nice and something that many people, like myself, do regularly.

I shoot Limited often and would shoot a Limited capacity division immediately because it brings more to the spectrum of 3 gun.

ETA: I shoot Limited primarily and only this year tried TACOPS however would like to shoot both

Limiting the length of the magazine is in fact a capacity limit. You can only get so many bullets in a tube that is 140mm long that still fits into the grip of a pistol. If you are not reloading your rifle and pistol to complete stages, that is a stage design issue, and not an equipment issue. Your comment that the only difference between scope tac and limited was the 1x optic. That is my point exactly. We need there to be more that sets the two apart besides just the magnification of the rifle optic. The two divisions are just too similar, we need more reasons to harass the scope tac guys besides their unnatural love of magnification.

[bmiller]

I can't see the appeal of downloading your handgun. If you live in a ban state, fine. This game is expensive no matter what equipment restrictions are in play, I do not see how another $100 for mag extensions is going to make a differance. I have shot a few IDPA style 3-gun matches, they are ok. I would much rather shoot the wide open style matches where I am not counting to 10 or worrying about cover! I guess the other point is this is a game. I know people in the real world don't use shotguns that could be used for pole vaulting, but they don't download their mags to 10 either.

[Moltke]

Limiting the length of the magazine is in fact a capacity limit. You can only get so many bullets in a tube that is 140mm long that still fits into the grip of a pistol. If you are not reloading your rifle and pistol to complete stages, that is a stage design issue, and not an equipment issue. Your comment that the only difference between scope tac and limited was the 1x optic. That is my point exactly. We need there to be more that sets the two apart besides just the magnification of the rifle optic. The two divisions are just too similar, we need more reasons to harass the scope tac guys besides their unnatural love of magnification.

I get it. Capping the round count does the same thing and but it also aligns to how you're describing shotguns & rifles. If you're going to cap rounds instead of limit length for shotguns and rifles, then you should cap rounds instead of limit length when talking about pistols. Or don't, it was just a suggestion. I said 15rds because its the minimum for what most people would consider a modern duty gun, and for people shooting .40's a 15rd limit puts them at a starting level of equality with those of us who shoot 9's.

When you have multiple courses of fire at a local 3 gun match that are 18-20 rounds of each gun, generally you want to avoid reloading when possible because its going to take longer. I'd like to see a division where reloading is just part of playing the game and you know you're going to do it all the time with all the guns, not just the shotgun, so you better be good at it. Capped capacities (one way or another) increase those chances and very often even with a reload thrown in we're going to continue to spank the average TACOPS shooter.

But for this to be successful there has to be enough of a difference between TACOPS as it is now and whatever you want Limited to become; or its just just going to continue to be "TACOPS without magnified optics". I want to see the targets be the same but the shooting to be different, game plans be different, reload positions different, more being tested, etc. I don't want it to become a noob division or be required to buy a whole set of different gear to be competitive, but if you could figure it out to have a unique Limited division then I'd keep shooting it.

Capacity seems like an easy first step but if its just going to be TACOPS Light then I'll just start shooting TACOPS more often with everyone else.

[Moltke]

I can't see the appeal of downloading your handgun. If you live in a ban state, fine. This game is expensive no matter what equipment restrictions are in play, I do not see how another $100 for mag extensions is going to make a differance. I have shot a few IDPA style 3-gun matches, they are ok. I would much rather shoot the wide open style matches where I am not counting to 10 or worrying about cover! I guess the other point is this is a game. I know people in the real world don't use shotguns that could be used for pole vaulting, but they don't download their mags to 10 either.

The appeal is that some people consider reloading a gun to be a useful skill (much like shooting non-magnified optics) so being tested on that on the clock is a good thing. Keeping with a freestyle free-for-all sport, magazine capacity limits would be a way to make people in one division who want to do reloads have to do it, while higher capacity folks in another division don't have to.

Edited September 29, 2014 by Moltke

[Sterling White]

Lost my vote,,,,what So your old school with your 168s or 175s....don't be a hater if my rounds go super sonic while yours take a nap while they are lobbed in like footballs

Guess what!?! While it is true that I added a little diversity to the lineup I never left limited Don't screw with the division....go pick on TAC OPs

[Stlhead]

Super what? I thought your load was like 900 fps with a 90 grain bullet and that you had to use a 9# recoil spring (used) so the rifle would even cycle. Picking on Tac ops guys is fun, but rarely do they figure out that I am picking on them, they are too busy trying to find a new scope with a better eye box.

Back to the discussion, I am not sure how we got off on the pistol tangent, I think that the pistol should be left alone. Lets ignore the idea of addressing the pistol for the sake of this discussion.

I still see the shotgun as the most critical point. I think that 8 is enough. It was good enough for a TV show, and it is good enough for a shotgun in limited. You still have to load just as many shells, you just can't load as many at a given time. 8 is still a high capacity shotgun, and all your buddies at the skeet range will still call it a street sweeper. No one will be less of a man because his shotgun only holds 8 + 1. I just don't see the fun in setting up a scenario where people would want to load a gun before engaging targets on a loaded gun start. If the idea is that there is no capacity limit after the buzzer, why can't I put a big stick into my pistol? Or put a magnified optic on my limited gun? As long as it complied with the division rules before the buzzer who cares right? If it is 8 + 1 to start, then 8 + 1 should be good for the rest of the stage, limit the capacity of the gun uniformly or remove the limit and let people start with as much ammo as they want. Making a rule and then selectively enforcing it cheapens the rule. The long tube craze is nothing more than the exploit of a poorly written rule that has become popular and now people are reluctant to give it up.

Edited September 29, 2014 by Stlhead

[co-exprs]

Super what? I thought your load was like 900 fps with a 90 grain bullet and that you had to use a 9# recoil spring (used) so the rifle would even cycle. Picking on Tac ops guys is fun, but rarely do they figure out that I am picking on them, they are too busy trying to find a new scope with a better eye box.

Back to the discussion, I am not sure how we got off on the pistol tangent, I think that the pistol should be left alone. Lets ignore the idea of addressing the pistol for the sake of this discussion.

I still see the shotgun as the most critical point. I think that 8 is enough. It was good enough for a TV show, and it is good enough for a shotgun in limited. You still have to load just as many shells, you just can't load as many at a given time. 8 is still a high capacity shotgun, and all your buddies at the skeet range will still call it a street sweeper. No one will be less of a man because his shotgun only holds 8 + 1. I just don't see the fun in setting up a scenario where people would want to load a gun before engaging targets on a loaded gun start. If the idea is that there is no capacity limit after the buzzer, why can't I put a big stick into my pistol? Or put a magnified optic on my limited gun? As long as it complied with the division rules before the buzzer who cares right? If it is 8 + 1 to start, then 8 + 1 should be good for the rest of the stage, limit the capacity of the gun uniformly or remove the limit and let people start with as much ammo as they want. Making a rule and then selectively enforcing it cheapens the rule. The long tube craze is nothing more than the exploit of a poorly written rule that has become popular and now people are reluctant to give it up.

I tend to agree. Leave the pistol alone because I have no intention of spending a bunch of money on another hand full of tuned mags for my 2011. I am personally not opposed to rifle mag limits either and to be honest I've never actually used a magazine that held more than 40 in a match. The only reason I use the 40 is to monopod on it. Even on the shotgun, I run 10rd tubes, only because I like to load by 2's. Before that I always ran 9rd tubes. Spec division or not, makes no difference to me. I'll play within the rules and have a good time. I mean... jeebers! 30rds in my rifle and 20 in my pistol seems just about limitless to me. But then, I'm one of those HMI trolls from under the bridge.

[gondo]

the way the sport is growing i think it should be left alone or it will turn into ipsc or idpa with too many rules, its growing rapidly right now and i think we should just set back and enjoy all the new matches and benefits we are getting with the way things are going..... also catering to new shooters equipment needs isnt as big of a deal as we make it out to be... you give them the same equipment as someone experienced and they still get beat just about as bad, plus I personally think new shooters like all the equipment as most find it fun to look forward to getting something new and tinkering with it...

[J.Schmitt]

I don't care either way what the shotgun holds. I like going to Blue Ridge where it is capped at 8 in the tube. I like my tube that holds 10. As a match director for The Nordic Components Tactical Shotgun match, I have discussed with a few of our staff the idea of limiting the tube in the confines of a shotgun only match. We left it on the table for further discussion. I figure it makes a bigger deal in a shotgun only match that in a 3 gun match. There is always time to load and it always takes time, time when you pick up the shotgun before you start shooting or time while shooting.

Jay

Limited shooter

[TyinTX]

I'm still gonna go with limited isn't broke so let's not screw it up. For the sake of discussion if I had to do something here it is:

Pistol- As it is currently.

Rifle- 1x or irons, only one sight plane on rifle, double stack magazines only

Shotgun- 8+1 start, full capacity ok after buzzer. Mag tube maximum 1" past end of barrel.

Is it a lot different than now? Not really. Would 28" barreled shotguns suddenly rule limited? No. Be a bit different. Gamers would still go with long shotguns and long rifle mags. But both have a limit to how far they can go and still work well. It's still a game and for me would be a blast. I just don't want limited to be the "reloading" division. An important skill yes, not why I shoot 3 gun.