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Is there any reason to get something other than an M2?


Haraise

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M2 is overrated really. I have an 1100 that has over 500 rounds down the pipe with zero malfunctions (Except for 3 that were ammo related).

O_o

Not dealing with the loading gate on an 1100/1187 is reason enough to get something else.

500 rounds is a drop in the bucket. High mileage 1100s are high maintenance.

What he said. My 1100 would do 600 between cleanings then it would fall on its face. I spent a lot of time modding the lifter button, never got it great, just slightly better and way more finicky.
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M2 is overrated really. I have an 1100 that has over 500 rounds down the pipe with zero malfunctions (Except for 3 that were ammo related).

O_o

Not dealing with the loading gate on an 1100/1187 is reason enough to get something else.

500 rounds is a drop in the bucket. High mileage 1100s are high maintenance.

What he said. My 1100 would do 600 between cleanings then it would fall on its face. I spent a lot of time modding the lifter button, never got it great, just slightly better and way more finicky.

I have to call BS on that one. I have shot a Remington 1187 in the game of Skeet, competed nationally and have won many a shoot. This was all with the 11-87. I have put well over 10,000 rounds through it, and it still runs. Yes, I still have it and take it hunting a lot. Many have said its not the Bow or Arrow..... Its the indian.

Oh for what its worth, I have a Benny Hill Versamax myself. Cheers :cheers:

Most things do there job when designed right, serviced and maintained correctly

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I will probably get in trouble, but I'd like to try and explain a little about the why and how of 3Gun shotgun operation under the conditions we force them into.

For the record, I ran 1100s for 20 years. The last 3 of those in 3Gun...just not capable of the rigors of 3Gun. Someone will surely pipe up and say how the 1100s rule the trap fields...okay, sure. But in 3Gun, we are shooting them faster, handling them rougher and we add weight and change the operation parameters with more mass and spring in the magazine tube, on the order of 200 to 600% more, and shoot a wider load range. If you think that has no effect...you think wrong. On another forum, someone asked this question...

So, when guns are used as the designers intended, all is well. Otherwise not so good.

That goes for most things, but with autoloading shotguns, particularly true. That said, the designer of the M2, M4, VersaMax, and M3000 did not design them to be used in the "combat" or "3Gun Competition" role either. However, the design is not hampered by the load and capacity variations, so they work well.

What is extremely interesting, and should be noted is that the VersaMax and M4 share the same basic design in the operating system. The M2 and M3000 also share the same basic system, just with a different location of the action spring. Evaluation of each design, enhancements and modifications to the various platforms, it is abundantly clear why these two basic operating systems are dominant among the top level 3Gunners, and trust me, it is not just free guns.

All shotguns (let's just be honest) were designed to operate with a few shells in the tube. When we add a long tube and a long spring and then shoot buck, slugs and 2.5 dram birdshot to Prairie Storms out them them, we are so far away from the designed operating window that malfunctions "might" occur. Nowhere is this as evident with the 1100s and the 930s which have no method of self regulation for load variation. Add shell surge and stamped metal parts getting hit much harder than intended...recipe for failure. Moving a one pound plus stack of cylinders in a tube with a light spring and then having them make a U turn reliably...not exactly the best plan from an engineering perspective.

If you will look closely at the operating systems of the new Browning, the SLP, M4, VersaMax, M2, and the M3000, you will see that these systems incorporate regulation of the energy from a round within the operational system. But furthermore, due to these designs, the spring force has less of an effect on proper operation of the feed system than other shotgun systems. This regulation narrows the operating window, which increases reliability. Simply put, the added stresses we put on 3Gun shotguns has minimal impact on the dominant systems operational parameters but a significant detrimental impact on the systems of the 2nd tier platforms. Fortunate for 3Gunners, and the companies whose shotguns work. In stock trim, there are other shotguns that are equal, if not better than some of our "3Gun Favorites", and work perfectly well for their intended purpose and the mass market which is where the real sales occur. There are some companies that would do better to not market to the relatively small 3Gun crowd and spend their efforts on a demographic for which they have platforms that work better.

Donning my Nomex suit (yes, I really have one) :devil:

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So, when guns are used as the designers intended, all is well. Otherwise not so good.

Nowhere is this as evident with the 1100s and the 930s which have no method of self regulation for load variation. Add shell surge and stamped metal parts getting hit much harder than intended...recipe for failure. Moving a one pound plus stack of cylinders in a tube with a light spring and then having them make a U turn reliably...not exactly the best plan from an engineering perspective.

Donning my Nomex suit (yes, I really have one) :devil:

So true. I loved the way my JM Pro ran birdshot, but throw in slugs or buck, it was done for the day.

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And now I get to be "that guy" as well. 10,000 rounds on your 11-87? Wow that is incredible! I remember when my M1 Benelli was like new. It is now approaching its 20th year with me, and it's 250,000 shell aniversary of assorted slugs, buckshot, and birdshot. It has to date rounded out ONE bolt carrier, and broken ONE locking lug recess in the barrel extension. Both were easily replaced and it is running just fine. A friend of mine runs a dove shooting operation in South America where he has two Benelli M1 loaner guns with over 375,000 on each. The best I could ever find was an 1100 with 50,000 rounds on it and a bucket full of broken parts. The Versa,s are certainly doing their fair share to fill those buckets as well with broken hammers, cracked gas piston systems, disconnected.....etc....a Remington tradition! :)

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Cracked pistons and some of the hammer issues on VMs...oil in the cylinders...big no-no. But yes, Kurt, their implementation of the design can use some improvement, and at least the engineers at Remington respond to the gripes and notes I have sent them.

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Cracked pistons and some of the hammer issues on VMs...oil in the cylinders...big no-no. But yes, Kurt, their implementation of the design can use some improvement, and at least the engineers at Remington respond to the gripes and notes I have sent them.

Just out of curiosity Mark why does Remington recommend to apply a light coat of oil to the gas pistons in the owner’s manual for the Versa Max if it is so bad?

"17. Apply a light application of Rem™ Oil

to the outside of the barrel, gas pistons,

and O-ring with a soft clean

cloth." From page 20

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The outside of the pistons, but certainly not IN the chambers or on the portion of the pistons that are in the chambers. Not everything in a manual is borne of real world performance. Not much more I can say but don't do it.

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Would this be an issue if the gun was wet? Like dropped in a wetland while walking through it?

Yes! If you get it soaked or even in a heavy rainstorm, you should make sure the cylinders are dry. I have had only a few FTFs in 10K rounds, and both times were when I got poured on. I did not crack anything, but the second time I checked the cylinders and they had a bit of moisture in them.

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M2 is overrated really. I have an 1100 that has over 500 rounds down the pipe with zero malfunctions (Except for 3 that were ammo related).

O_o

Not dealing with the loading gate on an 1100/1187 is reason enough to get something else.

500 rounds is a drop in the bucket. High mileage 1100s are high maintenance.

What he said. My 1100 would do 600 between cleanings then it would fall on its face. I spent a lot of time modding the lifter button, never got it great, just slightly better and way more finicky.

I have to call BS on that one. I have shot a Remington 1187 in the game of Skeet, competed nationally and have won many a shoot. This was all with the 11-87. I have put well over 10,000 rounds through it, and it still runs. Yes, I still have it and take it hunting a lot. Many have said its not the Bow or Arrow..... Its the indian.

Oh for what its worth, I have a Benny Hill Versamax myself. Cheers :cheers:

Most things do there job when designed right, serviced and maintained correctly

BS he says! Okay, yes it would run well over that many rounds if I was shooting bird shot from a nice standing position. Throw a bunch of different loads and alot of junkyard prone practice with your ejection port 3 inches off the dirt and 600 rounds is what you'll get out of it. My 1301 has yet to be confused by shooting the gun sideways on the ground. Edited by TonytheTiger
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And now I get to be "that guy" as well. 10,000 rounds on your 11-87? Wow that is incredible! I remember when my M1 Benelli was like new. It is now approaching its 20th year with me, and it's 250,000 shell aniversary of assorted slugs, buckshot, and birdshot. It has to date rounded out ONE bolt carrier, and broken ONE locking lug recess in the barrel extension. Both were easily replaced and it is running just fine. A friend of mine runs a dove shooting operation in South America where he has two Benelli M1 loaner guns with over 375,000 on each. The best I could ever find was an 1100 with 50,000 rounds on it and a bucket full of broken parts. The Versa,s are certainly doing their fair share to fill those buckets as well with broken hammers, cracked gas piston systems, disconnected.....etc....a Remington tradition! :)

Get all the applicable m2 parts thst fit the vmax, put them all in a bag, and sell it as a "reliability kit".

Ill buy one.

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Nope. Benelli is the way. I can't add on to what kurtm has already said, but I started with a Remington 1100. That got changed for Benelli in a hurry once I started practicing a lot, I mean a lot. 1000 rounds a week sometimes, the 1100 would be filthy and take an hour to clean, at least. The M2 needs cleaning, too, but is way simpler to do. And will go a couple weeks before needing takedown (bolt etc) cleaning. Nobody can take that kind of practice forever, but when you first get in, you want to get good. The Benelli is awesome for weak hand loading with just some emery board smoothing on the port and a welded lifter. The lifter is very easy to push down and depending on your hands, adapts very well to load twos and quads. It will shoot anything, mostly I shoot special Benelli shotgun ammo from Walmart, because. Flying. So get the Benelli. I love these threads. My girl is red hot , yours ain't doodly squat! Oh, black Betty! Yeah, I love my Benelli. I even put the regular stock back on, because of the awesome stippling done on it!

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And now I get to be "that guy" as well. 10,000 rounds on your 11-87? Wow that is incredible! I remember when my M1 Benelli was like new. It is now approaching its 20th year with me, and it's 250,000 shell aniversary of assorted slugs, buckshot, and birdshot. It has to date rounded out ONE bolt carrier, and broken ONE locking lug recess in the barrel extension. Both were easily replaced and it is running just fine. A friend of mine runs a dove shooting operation in South America where he has two Benelli M1 loaner guns with over 375,000 on each. The best I could ever find was an 1100 with 50,000 rounds on it and a bucket full of broken parts. The Versa,s are certainly doing their fair share to fill those buckets as well with broken hammers, cracked gas piston systems, disconnected.....etc....a Remington tradition! :)

Actually, type o the round count was over 100,000. To date I have three broken parts. A rubber O Ring, firing pin, and a extractor certainly far from a bucket full.

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A budget is the only plausible reason.

This, and because of this, I thank and applaud Jesse and Patrick Kelley for point shooters like me to the Stoeger M3000. As well as the smiths and businesses that support the less than gold standard guns.

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A budget is the only plausible reason.

This, and because of this, I thank and applaud Jesse and Patrick Kelley for point shooters like me to the Stoeger M3000. As well as the smiths and businesses that support the less than gold standard guns.

+1000, love my stoeger. I don't have a ton of rounds through it yet, but I have had no problems, and it does not pain me at all to hack it apart with a mill and some files. Plus I can throw it into the barrels without a care. Not sure I could do that with an M-2 simply because it costs so much. I really don't see a benefit of the m2 over the M3000. (I own a SBE2 and used to have an M2) However I never ran these guns in 3G, only for hunting. Aside from fit and finish, the guns feel and shoot very similar

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I agree with everything said here... lots of good information... I run a Vmax COMP Tactical and I have to say... not a hiccup. People talked a bunch about how you still had to spend a few hundred here and there for port work and such... all and all this as been the most reliable gun I have owned with a crazy mix of shells. Granted I have only put 9K rounds through it, but so far it has gone boom every time, it has been dead accurate with slugs and buck, and I think it improved my splits a bit due to the fact that it is so soft shooting.

For the cost of it I could have run and bought an M2 and sent it out, but instead I can immediately pick my gun out on the rack of the "Sea of B" and I have not a single doubt in my mind that when I pull the trigger it will go boom and advance the next round... just my .02 ( which is worth much less)

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I get told by Benelli shooters all the time that Benelli is best and from a point of view of quality they may be right. I have seen a couple of M1's used by hard core waterfowlers die, but they were shooting heavy 3 inch steel loads. What I just cannot get past however is how much softer shooting my VM is than an M2. For me that equates to faster times. I accept that I may need to run a Benelli Hammer in mine at some stage but in any form of competitive sport the best tools are very rarely "off the shelf". That said I run my VM as it came with a new design lifter that has been polished, otherwise stock. I used the shim kits to get the fit right and now I just shoot it, so far I have shot 19 slabs (250 rounds per slab) or 4750 rounds without issue. I have had exactly two failures both were failures to eject on old 2.5 inch paper cased loads.

When I see newbies on the range getting told to buy a Benelli because its the only gun I just smile as I truly believe as a mid level shooter I have a competitive advantage. I am shooting against shooters who mostly use stock guns and while most of them get points on me with the pistol I drag it back with rifle and especially shotgun. I really don't care to much for brand fanboys, (Apple users are definitely in this category) I just use what works best. To me the VM with soft recoil allows me to get fast splits and I miss less because I don't have to work so hard to stay on target. So yeah, buy a Benelli especially if you are a 3 Gun shooter in New Zealand, suits me just fine. ;)

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