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.223 with 8208 XBR, what's the 'right' thing to do next wi


Trekkie

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OK.

So after probably close to four months of anxiety, reading, laziness, 'it's too hot outside to work on the bench' isms after getting my Dillon 650 I finally sat down and worked all the kinks out and got my first 20 bullets of .223 loaded with 8208 XBR.

I started with X-Treme Bullets 55 Grain FMJ and based on the limited data http://www.hodgdonreloading.com/data/rifle?&CartridgeName=223+Remington&OrderBW%5B%5D=55&Manufacturer%5B%5D=All&Powder%5B%5D=IMR+8208+XBR had I started with the lowest number of 21.5 Grains.

I only managed to crush one .223 brass while setting up the dies (the crimp die oops) and with no primer explosions even though I put them in upside down (sigh) and had to take it all apart to get them out of there I finally got the rounds loaded and looking good on everything I could measure with.

I took them out to the range yesterday and fired them through my chrono. I accomplished the three important things. They Didn't Explode, I didn't shoot my Chrono (it was at 25 yards) and I didn't shoot the light stand I bought for my camera gear that cost more than the chrono. :)

This is the data I got.

15312850321_7db801dae3_b.jpg

My question is, other than 'knowing' from other sources that I should use more powder, is there some kind of math you would do to decide what grain to go to next to get up to the 2700 FPS range? I have the Lyman manual and the 'ABC's of Reloading' book and I read those once but I don't remember seeing that. Is it trial and error? if so, what's a decent number to increase your load by ?

I checked all the fired brass and they looked no different from the production brass I also fired after for comparison. The primers were dented and not blown back flat, there was no splits/cracks on the re-fired brass. My brass was once fired by me in the same rifle and picked up and cleaned & re-used.

Thanks for any comments.

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Good luck with those XTreme 55g bullets. Not a lot of good reports and somebody reported the engineers told them they were designed for lower speeds. My guess is at some point in your quest for more speed you will lose a ton of accuracy.

And rifle reloading isnt necessarily all about speed(depending on your use of course). Google OCW(optimized charge weight) to get a good grasp on a great way to do load development for rifles.

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I should have clarified my goals :) For this, it's basically 'stuff to shoot'. I thought my speed was too slow because I compared it to federal .223 and it was doing 2700 so I thought I could add some more to make it like it was when I first shoot.

So practice rounds, no competition stuff yet.

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OK.

So after probably close to four months of anxiety, reading, laziness, 'it's too hot outside to work on the bench' isms after getting my Dillon 650 I finally sat down and worked all the kinks out and got my first 20 bullets of .223 loaded with 8208 XBR.

I started with X-Treme Bullets 55 Grain FMJ and based on the limited data http://www.hodgdonreloading.com/data/rifle?&CartridgeName=223+Remington&OrderBW%5B%5D=55&Manufacturer%5B%5D=All&Powder%5B%5D=IMR+8208+XBR had I started with the lowest number of 21.5 Grains.

I only managed to crush one .223 brass while setting up the dies (the crimp die oops) and with no primer explosions even though I put them in upside down (sigh) and had to take it all apart to get them out of there I finally got the rounds loaded and looking good on everything I could measure with.

I took them out to the range yesterday and fired them through my chrono. I accomplished the three important things. They Didn't Explode, I didn't shoot my Chrono (it was at 25 yards) and I didn't shoot the light stand I bought for my camera gear that cost more than the chrono. :)

This is the data I got.

15312850321_7db801dae3_b.jpg

My question is, other than 'knowing' from other sources that I should use more powder, is there some kind of math you would do to decide what grain to go to next to get up to the 2700 FPS range? I have the Lyman manual and the 'ABC's of Reloading' book and I read those once but I don't remember seeing that. Is it trial and error? if so, what's a decent number to increase your load by ?

I checked all the fired brass and they looked no different from the production brass I also fired after for comparison. The primers were dented and not blown back flat, there was no splits/cracks on the re-fired brass. My brass was once fired by me in the same rifle and picked up and cleaned & re-used.

Thanks for any comments.

The chart is nice and all but not all that informative or easy to read as I can't really tell what speed you are at currently. It appears your average was around 2,200 fps which seems terribly slow for that load.

Also, why is your chrono 25 yards away? 10-12 feet is sufficient and gets a bit closer to muzzle velocity.

You already posted the link to Hodgdon's data. Simply load up a group of rounds from 21.5 up to 23.0 in 0.5 increments (or lesser increments if you want) and monitor the velocity and ejected brass for pressure signs (doubtful).

2.260 seems long for those bullets, Hodgon has 2.180 for the 55 grain pills and that sounds close to the length I use for the Hornady 55g FMJBT I load.

CCI 400 primers aren't exactly the best option in an AR15 (higher risk of slam fire which is rare) as they will show signs of pressure earlier than primers designed for the AR15.

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Sorry I forgot to include my averages.

Vel Average

2239.3125

Power Avg

123.16

Ft/Lbs Avg

612.795

So maybe my first change should be to change my OAL down to 2.18? I could see a large portion of the 'hash mark' on the bullet indicating seating depth so maybe I'm 'under' pressure?

What primers do you recommend for AR15? I'm relatively new to this and didn't read anything that indicated that there would be a 'better' primer and just bought what was available on the shelf.

Thanks

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Sorry I forgot to include my averages.

Vel Average

2239.3125

Power Avg

123.16

Ft/Lbs Avg

612.795

So maybe my first change should be to change my OAL down to 2.18? I could see a large portion of the 'hash mark' on the bullet indicating seating depth so maybe I'm 'under' pressure?

What primers do you recommend for AR15? I'm relatively new to this and didn't read anything that indicated that there would be a 'better' primer and just bought what was available on the shelf.

Thanks

2,239 fps (at 25 yards from the muzzle) seems awfully slow from 21.5 grains of 8208 XBR with a 55 grain bullet, Hodgdon would have you near 2,900 fps which I will add seems very high. I know Hodgon has 21.5-23.0 which is a pretty conservative range IMO (compared to other published manuals such as Hornady which reflects 22.8-25.8).

Here are the average velocities I got with 8208 at ~12 feet from the muzzle with Hornady 55g FMJBT and CCI41 :

23.5 grains - 2,722 fps

24.0 grains - 2,778 fps

24.5 grains - 2,819 fps

25.0 grains - 2,870 fps

25.5 grains - 2,950 fps

(All disclaimers apply, this is not reloading advice, do not use these loads, I am not responsible if you harm yourself, others or your equipment)

When loading for an AR15, it is typically better to use a primer with a thicker cup (i.e., CCI41, Rem 7 1/2, Wolf/Tula 5.56) Here are a couple of links worth reviewing:

http://www.sksboards.com/smf/index.php?topic=56422.0

http://www.jamescalhoon.com/primers_and_pressure.php

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OK. Thanks. I appreciate the information with all it's disclaimers :) I hate how we have to do that these days but understand completely. I feel a bit mad scientist-y doing this.

I think I'll re-test with my chrono closer and then work with that data first.

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Your not going to see a vast difference in velocity between 25 yds and 10 ft. Your spreads will still be the same. I'd suggest loading up some up to about 25 grains and try at 10 ft, this will give you information comparable to others. Also, change the primer as suggested above.

Disclaimer: None of the above is to be construed as a suggestion - merely tidbits floating down from the "cloud" !! :roflol:

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To answer your question, the next thing you should probably do is shoot some groups with your ammo to see how it is grouping, thats what really matters, not so much what FPS your bullet is traveling. Make sure to watch your crimp with those extremes, they can be a little picky.

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I would put the chronograph away. You are looking to bang, bang, ammo to practice with. As long as the load groups decent and cycles the action reliably you are good to go. Extra speed only burns extra powder which costs extra money and wears your barrel and other components out faster.

I would work up from where you started in .5 grain increments. I would load five of each and see how they group. Do not exceed max load listed. There is feedback above that suggests one might find success around 23 grains or so.

I would use Rem 7 1/2 primers when I ran out of the CCI.

If one chooses to change primers, he/she needs to drop the charge and work back up. Primers change pressure curves.

Disclaimer: This is what I would do, only you can decide what you should do.

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This...

Your not going to see a vast difference in velocity between 25 yds and 10 ft. Your spreads will still be the same. I'd suggest loading up some up to about 25 grains and try at 10 ft, this will give you information comparable to others. Also, change the primer as suggested above.

Disclaimer: None of the above is to be construed as a suggestion - merely tidbits floating down from the "cloud" !! :roflol:

along with this (and RDAs chrono data):

I run 23.0 grains XBR with 55 gr Nosler and Sierra bullets...they run around 2500-2650 fps. OAL is 2.200". Going to try out some Xtreme 55s with the same load.

These are my close-in hoser rounds.

should be telling you something - your loads are way light. IIRC, Hodgdon gives two loads for 55gr bullets, the first one, which you're using load data for, is some random, odd, no one shoots bullet (at least for the 3 gun crowd), and the second, with a much higher charge range (23-25.3gr).

Load the Xtremes like Hornady FMJ or SPs. OAL to mid-cannelure, or ~2.230" for non-cannelured bullets.

Once you stop obsessing over 2.20 vs 2.22 vs 2.2x" OAL and just seat to mid cannelure, you'll find yourself very likely loading to 24-25gr to approximate factory ammo, which is what I'd be looking for, to avoid ballistic differences when shooting > 50-100yards...especially when you're so low currently.

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Thanks for all the feedback. I have lots to play with now, will make some more Friday evening and give it another go and post my results, hopefully with all 10 fingers too ;)

Slowly getting that confidence. It's pretty easy & very formulaic so I don't know why i'm a little anxious heh. I did manage to score some titegroup locally so I can finally give a pistol round a go! :toot:

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My pet load for the past 3yrs has been 24.4gr 8208, Hornady 55gr FMJ, OAL 2.200". Sub MOA, runs 2800fps from 16" barrels, 3000 from 18" and 3150 from 20" sticks, with no signs of over pressure and the cases are easy to resize. I use that load out to 600yds with tremendous success. The load is honestly so good, I've not bothered with my 69gr loads in a couple of years.

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My pet load for the past 3yrs has been 24.4gr 8208, Hornady 55gr FMJ, OAL 2.200". Sub MOA, runs 2800fps from 16" barrels, 3000 from 18" and 3150 from 20" sticks, with no signs of over pressure and the cases are easy to resize. I use that load out to 600yds with tremendous success. The load is honestly so good, I've not bothered with my 69gr loads in a couple of years.

Thanks for sharing. Any particular primer?

I recently did some of my own testing with IMR 8208 XBR with a 16" Larue PredaTOBR and had these results:

Hornady 55gr FMJBT - 2.200" - CCI41 - LC brass - IMR 8208 XBR - 23.5 gr - 2,723 fps avg.

Hornady 55gr FMJBT - 2.200" - CCI41 - LC brass - IMR 8208 XBR - 24.0 gr - 2,778 fps avg.

Hornady 55gr FMJBT - 2.200" - CCI41 - LC brass - IMR 8208 XBR - 24.5 gr - 2,819 fps avg.

Hornady 55gr FMJBT - 2.200" - CCI41 - LC brass - IMR 8208 XBR - 25.0 gr - 2,870 fps avg.

Hornady 55gr FMJBT - 2.200" - CCI41 - LC brass - IMR 8208 XBR - 25.5 gr - 2,950 fps avg.
The 25.5 gr. load had the lowest standard deviation but I shot the 24.5 gr. load the best (5 shots - 1.5 MOA at 140 yards). I planned to try another ladder of loads from 24.0 - 25.0 to see if I could improve on that, I'd like to be able to get 1 MOA out of a pet load with the Hornady 55gr FMJBT.
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To the OP:

The data you referenced and used is for a Barnes copper bullet which is much longer than the Extreme or Hornady 55 FMJ, hence the lower charge recommended.If you look on line at the data for 55 gr FMJ the lowest starting load is 23 grans :cheers:

Edited by reptoid
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My pet load for the past 3yrs has been 24.4gr 8208, Hornady 55gr FMJ, OAL 2.200". Sub MOA, runs 2800fps from 16" barrels, 3000 from 18" and 3150 from 20" sticks, with no signs of over pressure and the cases are easy to resize. I use that load out to 600yds with tremendous success. The load is honestly so good, I've not bothered with my 69gr loads in a couple of years.

Added to my list of loads I need to try.

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The only caution I have for 8208 is that it turns south in a hurry at high loads. Like .1g can cause primers to start popping. It runs great above most book numbers but you will get in trouble quick with it. Beyond that its a GREAT powder and usually fairly easy to find.

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Yeah thanks I don't plan on being to aggressive. That's the reason I use it, I can find it. I made the mistake of buying the press and then going 'oh lets get some powder' only to be totally blown away with how hard it is to find.

The 8208 was the only thing I found so far. I *just* got two pounds of titegroup. I bought my press in April... It mocked me for about three months in my garage. So it's pretty exciting to be doing something finally.

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Yeah thanks I don't plan on being to aggressive. That's the reason I use it, I can find it. I made the mistake of buying the press and then going 'oh lets get some powder' only to be totally blown away with how hard it is to find.

The 8208 was the only thing I found so far. I *just* got two pounds of titegroup. I bought my press in April... It mocked me for about three months in my garage. So it's pretty exciting to be doing something finally.

Oh you wont be able to run those 55g XTreme's very hot anyway, anything over about 2500fps and the accuracy goes to hell. XTreme engineers have even admitted as much after people called and complained of horrible accuracy. I stick to the Hornady bulk packs, and I am an XTreme bullets dealer, I just dont touch their 55g FMJ's.

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