bayougump Posted September 17, 2014 Share Posted September 17, 2014 I have a Dillon 650 and I have been reloading awhile but just started loading 38 Super for my open gun. I am having issues with the sizing die. I just bought a brand new set of Dillon dies and adjusted them correctly on my press. After the brass goes thru stage 1 for resizing and depriming, some cases end up with a deep ring cut into the brass at the very bottom of the case. I am using one shot case lube and I rechecked that I had the sizing die all the way down but then backed off just a hair once it touched the shell plate. When I case gauge the rounds, the ones that fail are because they get caught on that ring made from the sizing die. Can anyone offer any suggestions? I took some pics and hope they are clear enough to see the ring I'm talking about. Thanks in advance Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yoshidaex Posted September 17, 2014 Share Posted September 17, 2014 Have you tried lanolin? One shot is good case lube but in certain instances it's not enough lube to get big bulges out without doing what you're experiencing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Service Desk Posted September 17, 2014 Share Posted September 17, 2014 That ridge at the bottom makes me think that there is either an alignment issue on the press or the brass is stretched more than a tad. Do they pass a chamber check ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
superdude Posted September 17, 2014 Share Posted September 17, 2014 That ridge at the bottom makes me think that there is either an alignment issue on the press or the brass is stretched more than a tad. Do they pass a chamber check ? Those are my thoughts as well. Other thoughts: Is the problematic brass a specific headstamp? Are you using the correct shell plate? What do the brass measure BEFORE they are sized? The lube should have nothing to do with this. Most of us don't use lube at all and don't see this except when something else is amiss. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
superdude Posted September 17, 2014 Share Posted September 17, 2014 (edited) More questions: Is the ring around all of the case or just one side? This suggests an alignment issue, or the cases were asymmetrically bulged. What is the diameter of the sized case above the ring? This might suggest the size die dimensions are off. Edited September 17, 2014 by superdude Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
truborshooter Posted September 17, 2014 Share Posted September 17, 2014 The ring is the fire expanded unresized base of the case that the chamfer of the die doesn't reach. Also it is the area of the die with the case web making it much thicker that the rest of the case. Also there is a little flowing of brass to the base from the carbide ring of the die. I found using Star Line Super Comp brass, the Dillon die set, major loads around 172 pf and a std STI Trubor barrel, I'd get about 4-5 reloads before the bulldup of brass would no longer fit my Wilson case gauge. I also found that the Wilson gauges are more to chamber minumums than most. While some rounds wouldn't fit the gauge they would fit the chamber. Probably part of the problem is the loose chamber dimensions to start. I just figure it is the cost of doing business in extra Sammi spec Open division I just started to use a Lee U die and a new lot of Star brass but haven't fired many yet I did notice the Lee die will get me closer to the case head that the Dillon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bayougump Posted September 17, 2014 Author Share Posted September 17, 2014 The ring is all the way around the case. It's not a specific brass and it doesn't happen to every round, but more than I'd like. The ones with the ring fail case gauge right at the ring. The puzzling part is that it's not a specific brass and it doesn't happen to every reload that I don't get. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bayougump Posted September 17, 2014 Author Share Posted September 17, 2014 When you speak of alignment issues, what part are you referring? I've loaded thousands of 9mm and 40 before on the same press and never had this issue. I bought a separate tool head, conversion kit, quick change etc for specific calibers. Makes easier to change calibers. How would I check the alignment? Could it be a bum die? I've only loaded like 200 with it maybe. Thanks again for helping diagnose Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kneelingatlas Posted September 17, 2014 Share Posted September 17, 2014 Where did you get the brass? Range pickup? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrumpyOne Posted September 17, 2014 Share Posted September 17, 2014 I've reloaded thousands of 38s on my 550 using Dillon dies and have never seen anything that pronounced. Starline brass, Magtech, Win, whatever I get my hands on except some oddball stuff. And all shot through my Trubor. Check the chamber of your gun, see if it's oversized, check alignment of the size die, and check the die itself at the carbide ring... I've had some brass that looked like it had that ring, but it was just discolorations on the brass... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
superdude Posted September 17, 2014 Share Posted September 17, 2014 Interesting. If the ring is all the way around, then it's probably not an alignment issue. Alignment would most likely produce an asymmetrical ring. It sounds like some measurements are required to try to figure out where the problem lies, such as before and after sizing. It might help to determine if it's a brass issue or a die issue. Yes, a bad die could be the problem. If the size die is too small, it might produce this effect. Also, is this brass that has been only fired in your gun, or does it include range pick-ups? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bayougump Posted September 17, 2014 Author Share Posted September 17, 2014 Some is once fired and some is range pickup brass Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrawandDuck Posted September 17, 2014 Share Posted September 17, 2014 Is this brass fired from your gun or do you pick up whats left? Reason I ask is that I only use brass fired out of my gun, right or wrong it has worked for me for 7 years now. I had the same issue several months ago where some guys where picking up brass and threw it in my bag. Come to find out it was super comp fired out of a 9x23 gun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RDA Posted September 17, 2014 Share Posted September 17, 2014 It looks to me like it was bulged brass that wasn't able to resized all the way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HI5-O Posted September 17, 2014 Share Posted September 17, 2014 Some of my brass fired from my gun were having that problem too. I used both the undersized Lee die and the Dillon dies and still had that problem, never had it before so my thoughts were a bad batch of brass. Then I got me a CasePro and began roll sizing my brass and haven't had that problem since. I then thought what changed and I had changed powders recently so it could be that was causing the brass to expand more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wheelie Posted September 17, 2014 Share Posted September 17, 2014 Post some pics of fired (but not sized) brass from your gun. Measurements too if you have access to proper tools. I'm going to speculate that there are several causes that combine to give you this result. First, the load might be a bit hot. Second is a slightly large chamber and/or unsupported area at the rear. Third is your choice of brass. Any one or some combination of the three might be the problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kneelingatlas Posted September 17, 2014 Share Posted September 17, 2014 You think your wife was pissed about the Open gun?!? Wait 'til she sees this bad boy in the garage! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bayougump Posted September 17, 2014 Author Share Posted September 17, 2014 Post some pics of fired (but not sized) brass from your gun. Measurements too if you have access to proper tools. I'm going to speculate that there are several causes that combine to give you this result. First, the load might be a bit hot. Second is a slightly large chamber and/or unsupported area at the rear. Third is your choice of brass. Any one or some combination of the three might be the problem. I haven't shot any rounds out of it yet, least not that I have reloaded. I just got the gun and I test fired it with some friends ammo. I didn't expect every case to pass case gauging but out of the 100ish I've loaded, I'd say 15-20 end up with that ring. Every round that doesn't have a ring drops in the case gauge freely and perfect. I'm going to try and load 100 tonight and see exactly how many fail the case gauge. I haven't checked to see if they drop in the chamber, I just assume that the ring could cause feeding or extraction issues but I could be wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bayougump Posted September 17, 2014 Author Share Posted September 17, 2014 You think your wife was pissed about the Open gun?!? Wait 'til she sees this bad boy in the garage! Dude, your prolly right. KARMA is a B!+ch. it's like one thing or another trying to shoot these Tanfo. Lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted September 17, 2014 Share Posted September 17, 2014 Nope, you are not alone. http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=169883#entry1882637 You said you are shooting these from a tanfo, right? I have one and have come to believe the chamber in my Tanfo is actually 9x23 as it bulges cases noticeably more than any other gun I own and a 38 super Nonte finish reamer is quite loose in the Tanfo chamber towards the rim. As a result I get more rejected cases from the Tanfo than from my 1911 type guns. The good news is that you probably won't need to use a U-die if your chamber is like the Tanfo I have. Because if this I had to increase the rigor of my 38 super case processing. Basically, I u-die and decap all my 38 super cases on a 650, and then check/gauge the empty cases for excessive OAL, diameter, and case condition. It does take a little more effort, but it isn't horrible and actually goes pretty quickly with the right tools. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bayougump Posted September 18, 2014 Author Share Posted September 18, 2014 Well, I do not have the money or bench space for a casepro so I have started sizing and decapping on my 650 and just grabbing the case out of station 2 and throwing in a bucket to case gauge. I'll gauge all of them and separate and then reload those that pass. This will make reloading 38 super much more slower but I'll save on primers and bullets and save time having to pull them afterwards. Easiest and cheapest solution for now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted September 18, 2014 Share Posted September 18, 2014 If you have an extra tool head set-up you can process the brass pretty quickly for inspection much faster than manually extracting the cases from the press. What I have been doing lately is to process the 38 super brass on a 650 w/case feeder using a tool head with just two sizing dies (you could just use one in station 1 if you want). The first sizing die is a Dillon with the large flared opening and it decaps and sizes the case, then use a second sizing die on the tool head which is a Lee U-die with the decapper removed. Using two dies to progressively size the brass smaller seems to help avoid making the hard rings. Since there is no powder drop or bullet seating operations this process goes very fast. It is easy to crank out over 1k/hour since all I am doing is pulling the handle. After decapping and sizing Ithe cases get run through a parallel jaw clamp that is set to 0.904”, you can also use a set of calipers set to 0.904 (or whatever max OAL your gun is set up for) and fixed with the friction screw. This goes extremely fast and I can check 1k cases in about 15-20 minutes. This step might be unnecessary for you if your chamber accepts brass in the 0.910 range with no issues. My guns are set up for about 0.908 max and since I often use crappy range pick up brass from unknown guns I found that this step eliminates the occasional “just out of battery” jam. In theory pistol cases shouldn’t grow, but with bulged super cases the brass has to go somewhere during sizing and the cases indeed grow longer. After checking the OAL, the cases go into a 50 hole egw checker. Here is where I catch any that might have the hard ring, don’t completely go into the gauge, cull any supercomp or rimless that I missed (I load for 38 super), and give the case heads and rim a good once over. My young daughter helps here as she is pretty quick at putting the empty cases in the EGW gauge and then presenting them to me for inspection. I give her $1/1000 cases to help me. Now they are ready to be loaded with the press set up for reloading (sizer die w/decapping pin, powder die, seater die, crimp die). After being loaded I again use the EGW case gauge to check the loaded rounds, but the reject rate is nearly zero. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bayougump Posted September 18, 2014 Author Share Posted September 18, 2014 That sounds like a good idea with just getting an extra tool head with 2 dies. I did what I mentioned this morning and caught all the brass with rings in case gauge. It's slow but having my 4 year old case gauge and spending some father/daughter time makes it worthwhile;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wheelie Posted September 19, 2014 Share Posted September 19, 2014 Be careful. Back when dinosaurs roamed the earth and I shot .38 Super, cases that looked like that were ready to fail. It was not pretty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve_P Posted September 19, 2014 Share Posted September 19, 2014 Be careful. Back when dinosaurs roamed the earth and I shot .38 Super, cases that looked like that were ready to fail. It was not pretty. Super face? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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