Hours Before Nationals... Accu-Shadow :-(

[alma]

What rule book are you looking at? And it is a complete firearm. Made illegal for IDPA SSP by a third party gunsmith: Ghost/CZ-Custom.

This is very simple. I think the AccuShadow is an awesome gun, but the whiners here are annoying. It's not legal for SSP. If you hate IDPA so much don't shoot it. Go to a USPSA match and have Paul Hendrix work your timer as you shoot an FNS 9L

http://www.idpa.com/misc/RC/IDPARulesClarification-v2014-06-15.pdf

[alma]

It absolutely matters who owns what. It's why a Performance Center gun is allowed, but not a CZ Custom AccuShadow. Go read the whole damn rule book.

"OEM product is defined as a complete firearm product - Shadows that require milling do not fit

with specific model part numbers or sku’s catalogued as stock items by the manufacturer - They do have SKUs, as do the hats CZ sells...

and have a minimum annual production of 2,000 units for that specific model" - I'd love to see 2k a year of the AccuShadows and Shadow Targets...

Anymore questions?

http://www.idpa.com/misc/RC/IDPARulesClarification-v2014-06-15.pdf

Question: Is this slide machining allowed in IDPA?

Answer: Yes. With respect to slide machining, SSP, ESP and CDP, Original Equipment Manufacturer

(OEM) firearms with extensive slide machining are approved for use in IDPA if they meet all other

requirements for their respective Divisions. For slide machining, an OEM product is defined as a

complete firearm product, with specific model part numbers or sku’s catalogued as stock items by the

manufacturer and have a minimum annual production of 2,000 units for that specific model. Discontinued

models must have had a total production of 20,000 units for a specific model. IDPA HQ is working on a

process and document to be available on www.idpa.com to allow OEMs to identify firearms that meet this

requirement.

Edited September 11, 2014 by alma

[Racinready300ex]

alma beat me to it.

[Magsz]

Its not an OEM product though...

Nor does it meet the 2,000 # annual production requirements.

Please show me the SKU for the accubushing part itself.

How do you know it doesn't meet the annual production requirements? For that matter how do you know that any other gun does?

You cannot prove that they don't make 2k a year. Furthermore I believe it has been out for not more than a year and is on the USPSA Production gun list meaning they have certified that over 2k have been Produced. What evidence do you have to contradict this? Your intuition?

I am merely pointing out just how ridiculous these rules are. Short of my speculation, my first and third comments still stand. Shit, my second comment still stands at least for IDPA. Im sorry but CZ UB is not producing this pistol, a third party gunsmith IS and there is NO way in HELL they're producing 2k a YEAR. How do you not see how dangerous this is? ANY gunsmith can produce ANY modification they essentially want, petition the OEM to make it a catalog item and now we have race guns being produced for Production. Do you guys really want to go down this road?

THAT is my point.

Edited September 11, 2014 by Magsz

[matt7184]

It absolutely matters who owns what. It's why a Performance Center gun is allowed, but not a CZ Custom AccuShadow. Go read the whole damn rule book.

"OEM product is defined as a complete firearm product - Shadows that require milling do not fit

with specific model part numbers or sku’s catalogued as stock items by the manufacturer - They do have SKUs, as do the hats CZ sells...

and have a minimum annual production of 2,000 units for that specific model" - I'd love to see 2k a year of the AccuShadows and Shadow Targets...

Anymore questions?

http://www.idpa.com/misc/RC/IDPARulesClarification-v2014-06-15.pdf

Question: Is this slide machining allowed in IDPA?

Answer: Yes. With respect to slide machining, SSP, ESP and CDP, Original Equipment Manufacturer

(OEM) firearms with extensive slide machining are approved for use in IDPA if they meet all other

requirements for their respective Divisions. For slide machining, an OEM product is defined as a

complete firearm product, with specific model part numbers or sku’s catalogued as stock items by the

manufacturer and have a minimum annual production of 2,000 units for that specific model. Discontinued

models must have had a total production of 20,000 units for a specific model. IDPA HQ is working on a

process and document to be available on www.idpa.com to allow OEMs to identify firearms that meet this

requirement.

And you fail to understand that CZ Custom is not CZ-UB.

Show me the AccuShadow here:

http://www.czub.cz/cz/catalog/79-pistole-cz.aspx

[matt7184]

How many employees do you guys think CZ Custom actually has? Do you think all they do is make guns all day? CZ Custom does great work, but they don't only make AccuShadows 365/24/7....The not meeting 2k a year speculation is not very far fetched and has been questioned before in other threads.

[alma]

And you fail to understand that CZ Custom is not CZ-UB.

Show me the AccuShadow here:

http://www.czub.cz/cz/catalog/79-pistole-cz.aspx

It is here: http://cz-usa.com/product/cz-75-sp-01-accu-shadow-9mm-black-3x18-rd-mags-by-cz-custom/

But that doesn't even matter since under the IDPA rule I quoted CZC counts as an OEM.

[motosapiens]

And you fail to understand that CZ Custom is not CZ-UB.

everyone understands that, but the idpa rules, in plain english, define CZC as an OEM. I know you would like to make up your own definition, that's sort of the IDPA way.

Cz custom has a type 7 FFL (manufacturer of firearms). It's really not relevant that they get materials from cz-ub, just like it's not relevant that many 1911 mfrs use taurus parts.

You can argue about the 2000 number if you want, but if that were actually an issue, why wouldn't IDPA have used that valid reasoning instead of making up some tribal BS?

Edited September 11, 2014 by motosapiens

[matt7184]

No, CZ Custom doesn't count as an OEM, hence why IDPA banned the gun... they are not the same company. How do you not comprehend this?

http://companies.findthebest.com/l/8529916/Cz-Usa-in-Kansas-City-KS

http://companies.findthebest.com/l/219941/Ghost-Products-Cz-Custom-Shop-in-Mesa-AZ

for reference...a manufacturer... http://companies.findthebest.com/l/6806296/Smith-And-Wesson-Holding-Corporation-in-Springfield-MA

Enjoy taking a look at the SIC/NAICs classifications...

Per CZ-USA...

"

About CZ-USA

CZ products are imported exclusively by CZ-USA, a wholly-owned subsidiary of the parent company, Ceska Zbrojovka a.s. Uhersky Brod, (CZUB) of the Czech Republic. Our firearms have been available through normal channels in the US since 1991, through such importers/distributors as Bauska, Action Arms and Magnum Research.

In 1997 CZUB recognized the need to control its own destiny in a market as big as the US. Initially based in Oakhurst, California, the CZ-USA headquarters and warehouse facility was moved to Kansas City in January of 1998. All distribution, warranty work and repair work is located in the Kansas City, KS location, along with a well-stocked parts department."

http://cz-usa.com/company/about-cz-usa/

But I'm sure Alma still can't comprehend the difference between a manufacturer, importer, and third party gunsmith even after all this...lol.

[motosapiens]

No, CZ Custom doesn't count as an OEM, hence why IDPA banned the gun... they are not the same company. How do you not comprehend this?

That's your own made-up definition. They don't have to be the same company to be manufacturers. ATF and IDPA both disagree with you (and oddly enough, this one time, they are right, because you are wrong).

Edited September 11, 2014 by motosapiens

[matt7184]

Again, CZ Custom is not an OEM:

http://www.triangletactical.net/2014/09/09/hours-before-nationals-idpa-rules-cz-accu-shadow-illegal-for-ssp/

[matt7184]

No, CZ Custom doesn't count as an OEM, hence why IDPA banned the gun... they are not the same company. How do you not comprehend this?

That's your own made-up definition. They don't have to be the same company to be manufacturers. ATF and IDPA both disagree with you (and oddly enough, this one time, they are right, because you are wrong).

Yup, IDPA disagrees hence why they put it up on their Facebook Page...haha!!!!

So are you proclaiming CZ Custom is a separate manufacturer and is the real manufacturer of the AccuShadow? Just curious but who submitted the paperwork for USPSA Production for the gun???

[motosapiens]

No, CZ Custom doesn't count as an OEM, hence why IDPA banned the gun... they are not the same company. How do you not comprehend this?

That's your own made-up definition. They don't have to be the same company to be manufacturers. ATF and IDPA both disagree with you (and oddly enough, this one time, they are right, because you are wrong).

Yup, IDPA disagrees hence why they put it up on their Facebook Page...haha!!!!

So are you proclaiming CZ Custom is a separate manufacturer and is the real manufacturer of the AccuShadow? Just curious but who submitted the paperwork for USPSA Production for the gun???

IDPA (as usual) has a ruling that disagrees with their actual rules.

You seem to have a curious and romantic vision of what constitutes a 'manufacturer' in this day and age. I'm guessing it's pretty flexible too, depending on which point you are trying to prove.

[matt7184]

It's really simple actually. But I'm not a butt hurt Accu-Shadow owner.

Enjoy shooting your AccuShadow in the next IDPA match since it's legal.

[alma]

man·u·fac·tur·er

ˌmanyəˈfakCHərər/

noun

1. a person or company that makes goods for sale.

man·u·fac·tur·er

noun \-ˈfak-chər-ər, -ˈfak-shrər\

: a company that makes a product

[motosapiens]

It's really simple actually. But I'm not a butt hurt Accu-Shadow owner.

Enjoy shooting your AccuShadow in the next IDPA match since it's legal.

it is very simple, and I also am not an accushadow owner.

I just like to make fun of all the crazy suicidal stuff IDPA is doing to try to make the sport irrelevant. It's like watching a car crash, or a fat chick pole-dancing.

[zhunter]

The New IDPA Legal ACCU Shadow is out

[matt7184]

Wow. I'm really happy you know how to use a dictionary. You should share this discovery with IDPA. Teach them how CZ Custom is the manufacturer. Alma for IDPA president.

[matt7184]

It's really simple actually. But I'm not a butt hurt Accu-Shadow owner.

Enjoy shooting your AccuShadow in the next IDPA match since it's legal.

it is very simple, and I also am not an accushadow owner.

I just like to make fun of all the crazy suicidal stuff IDPA is doing to try to make the sport irrelevant. It's like watching a car crash, or a fat chick pole-dancing.

I'm not a fan of the IDPA rules myself....but I don't understand the whining about this AccuShadow issue. My interpretation of the IDPA rules coincides with that of IDPA apparently...and the AccuShadow is not legal.

With that said, while some of the IDPA rules may be silly, I'm not sure USPSA is in much better shape with the questionable weight practices, Production list practices, or timergate.

[motosapiens]

I'm not sure USPSA is in much better shape with the questionable weight practices,

are you calling me fat?

[matt7184]

I'm not sure USPSA is in much better shape with the questionable weight practices,

are you calling me fat?

You busted me...lol

[CDPMatt]

This is the dumbest thing since, well.... IDPA.

[JGus]

I shoot Accu's. I have a primary and a backup for Production in USPSA. Outstanding guns. Nothing magical about them. It doesn't fix poor fundamentals. It doesn't make me move faster. It doesn't shave time off my reloads or followup shots. I still get my ass kicked by Glock and M&P shooters. So why am I shooting Accu's and not some polymer? Because i can afford to and why should anyone give a crap about how I spend my money? I can't afford Open guns and Custom Limited guns, but that's another story.

No, I don't shoot IDPA, never have. So honestly I don't care what IDPA does in terms of rulings. I'm NOT arguing who manufactures what, where and how per IDPA rules. I don't care either way.

I just thought the timing of the announcement from IDPA was incredulous.

But here is what I find most comical about this entire "Accu" controversy.......so many people want to call the Accu Shadow a "race" gun. Even some people in USPSA Production division (and it's just some), who are shooting polymer guns with everything done to them possible to just keep it in the boundaries of Production legal, want to call the Accu a race gun.

For crying out loud people, it's just a bushing! Hell, if CZ came out with a Shadow model with a cone/bull barrel similar to Tanfo Stock II I'd prefer it over the bushing. Just personal preference. For people that say no person or LEO would carry an Accu in real life is like saying no person or LEO would carry a 1911 because it has a bushing.

And I've never had anyone consider any of my single stack 1911's with bushing and trigger work a race gun. But my stock Accu with a bushing and stock trigger is considered by many a "race" gun. Seriously, a race gun???? Hell, I consider my Sig X5 Allround with trigger work done by Sig custom shop to be closer to a "race" gun than the Accu.

Personally, I don't mind seeing technological or mechanical advancements in guns for competition and real life use (not that I consider a bushing an advancement as it's been around as long as dirt). And it's perfectly normal for the shooting sports to evolve with the advancements over time, too. If you want to stay stuck in the past go shoot Cowboy Action.

Edited September 11, 2014 by JGus

[rowdyb]

i spoke directly with a wilson combat rep today and the said they only make 3oo guns a month maximum, of all their offerings. how many of those do you think are that "ssp legal" beretta? i can bet you it sure ain't 2 thousand a year. and that gun, which requires milling of a stock slide to mount the front sight they use, is ssp legal.

utter BS.

[RescueYou]

Just another reason why I gave up the assclownsmanship of IDPA long ago to shoot USPSA. Ordered my ACCUSHADOW and I can't wait till it gets here. The anticipation is killing me.