Kimberkid Posted January 18, 2005 Share Posted January 18, 2005 I am going to be getting my first Open gun soon and am a bit troubled by something. I am recently hearing from some people that almost all gunsmiths build guns using STI Longblocks and save time on fitting the slide/frame/barrel. Is this true??? I recently bought an STI Trojan that although it runs fine now, the barrel/frame/slide fitting sucks. I am going to be paying all this money for a "custom" gun, and would like just that. My idea of a custom gun is one that is assembled from an oversized frame, oversized barrel, and oversized slide. I personally find it a bit dishonest on the part of the gunsmith to do this without any mention of it to the customer. The reason I am buying a "custom" gun and not an STI factory gun is due to my dissatisfaction with the purchase of my Trojan. On the flip side, I dont know shit about building guns. If most reputable gunsmiths feel that the Longblocks are of the same quality that they could personally fit, then fine, I will also trust it. I just dont want a gunsmith who uses what he knows are inferior parts just because he is lazy. On the 3rd hand, I dont wanna pay $4000 for an open gun. Am I trying to get everything for the cost of nothing? Is there a point in the price range where all guns are made by my definition of "custom". Are all the lower priced guns started as Longblocks?? Would anyone care to offer me some info on how this works?? I really hope I didnt just piss of the gunsmiths that frequent here, as that is not at all what I tried to do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Hostetter Posted January 18, 2005 Share Posted January 18, 2005 Can't speak for anyone else but I only use oversize frames and slides then fit them in the shop. We seem to be able to get a tighter and smoother fit that way. We also use only Bar Sto Oversized barrels which we fit. Pricing is different depending on what you want, and who is building it. We get about $2200.00 for an Open gun, depending on what you want and they are completely hand built. I suppose you could find someone to build you a $4000.00 gun, but not sure what you would get for the extra money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shred Posted January 18, 2005 Share Posted January 18, 2005 Open guns, like most everything else, have a far higher labor cost than parts cost. If a smith thinks he can get a decent fit with a pre-fitted combo and save 8 hours of work (I have no idea if this is true, btw), you'll pay less because if it. On the other hand, I've heard a top shooter say he'll put another 10-20 hours of work into a brand-new blaster after he gets it. Think about what 20 hours at a typical shop labor rate would run and you'll soon see that there is no such thing as a 'completely finished' gun, no matter who you buy it from. They'll all shoot, but the smith has to stop somewhere in order to stay in business. Where they choose to stop and what you want to spend are all part of the tradeoffs that have to be made. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davidwiz Posted January 18, 2005 Share Posted January 18, 2005 There are some "gunsmiths" who advertise that they sell a custom gun, but what it turns out to be is a pre-fitted frame/slide/barrel combo from the factory, with the 'smith putting the small parts together. Ironically, I've seen some of these guns costing as much if not more than a truly custom, built-for-you gun. If you goto any reputable gunsmith, they will start with an in-the-white (no finish) oversized gunsmith frame w/ no ramp cut (that you or they provide), and untouched slide, barrel and other parts. Then, using their hands and/or mill/lathe/cnc/other tools, will fit all the parts together. I guess it depends on how long you want to wait and if you want a (what I call a) production "custom" gun, or one that was built for you from the ground up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shred Posted January 18, 2005 Share Posted January 18, 2005 If you goto any reputable gunsmith, they will start with an in-the-white (no finish) oversized gunsmith frame w/ no ramp cut (that you or they provide), and untouched slide, barrel and other parts. Then, using their hands and/or mill/lathe/cnc/other tools, will fit all the parts together If (and stress the IF), it's just as good, why should it matter if the slide was fit by a gunsmith at the factory or the gunsmith you write the check to? Most smiths send various work out anyway-- fancy machining, bluing, chroming, whatever. Why not ask your smith to rifle the barrel while they're at it? Nobody but nobody starts with just a block of steel and a file. Have your smith do what they're good at (which hopefully is making a reliable, accurate, nice-looking blaster from a pile of parts) and let them choose who and how to get those parts they assemble. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricW Posted January 18, 2005 Share Posted January 18, 2005 After having my first, genuine, gunsmith hard-fit slide and frame (courtesy of Benny), I simply could not imagine having anything less on a 1911 pattern gun again. If my gunsmith was unwilling or incapable of doing such work, I would go elsewhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benny hill Posted January 18, 2005 Share Posted January 18, 2005 While STI does a good slide to frame fit, I alway's do my own. Don't know about anyone else.I would never trust anyone but myself to fit a barrel for correct timeing & feeding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulW Posted January 18, 2005 Share Posted January 18, 2005 I asked Bedell one time about how he fits his slide-to-frames and my jaw dropped when I heard what he does. Dan...chime in and explain how you fit yours. I was amazed at what he goes throuh so they are right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J.L. Hardy Posted January 18, 2005 Share Posted January 18, 2005 when building any 5" version i have found sti slide to frame fits to be very acceptable. if i were to get one that was not i would send it back. i do not like to let anyone else fit a barrel for me. this would include cutting the frame ramp. problem is they (sti) won't supply fit commander slides and frames, which is what i normally use so i end up fitting them myself anyway. there are a whole lot of high dollar guns built on factory fitted slide and frames. and even some on short blocks that include the barrel fitting. this shouldn't be construed to be a negative in any way. most gunsmiths would choose to fit them in order to gain the revenue that the factory would charge Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jjanglin Posted January 19, 2005 Share Posted January 19, 2005 Personnaly I feel that fitting the slide and frame yourself(inshop) is the only way to do it. Ive never bought a long block/short block but I have redone some guns that started that way. I can also build you a gun (open) for 22-2300 if ya want a bunch of fancy cuts its more dollars. but not near as much as some charge. Bob H is right . Id like to add that since the AWB is gone Caspian is a much better set-up I feel!! Jim Anglin Sailors custom Pistols 4760 n 17th st. Omaha Ne 68110 402 451 0797 jjanglin@msn.com cell/shop 402 650 5190 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Millennium Custom II Posted January 19, 2005 Share Posted January 19, 2005 Yeah, you're right about some gunsmiths using short blocks and drop-in parts. There's nothing wrong with that if they're upfront about it. In our shop we use all oversized parts, our frame to slide is fitted to within .0005 We also cut our own ramp and bridge to fit particular barrels which may vary in size. On our open guns we prefer to use cone comps to get a precise fit that will enhance the acuracy. As far as the prices from mid two's to four's, there is no difference between reliability, performance or fit of our guns. But all the extra bucks you are paying for is a lot of fancy cuts with no machine marks.(Labor). MCII Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kimberkid Posted January 19, 2005 Author Share Posted January 19, 2005 Thanks everyone for your time and comments. I feel much better now, and also have additional resources to contact. Shred, to answer your question.... If the fit is just as good from STI as it is from the smith, then it doesnt matter really. I would assume that a smith's profit margin would be higher using a "kit" than fitting it all himself, and yet the overall price to me is gonna stay the same. I am in no way trying to screw a gunsmith out of a living, I just wanna get what I pay for. Personally, on the guns I have seen, the STI factory fitting has not been outstanding. I have seen some of Tony Holmes guns that Benny built that were fit so well they looked like 1 solid piece of metal. I've also seen guns from Bedell, EGW, Rock River, and several others that looked and ran as smooth as grease on glass. If I am throwing down $2500, thats what I want. Not some STI factory stuff that is "good enough to make a gun". A lot of If's in there and I guess the roundabout point is that I am carefully selecting a well known smith and trusting him with this project, I want him to figure out how to make me the overall best gun possible. Thanks again everyone, I have a newly restored faith, and will probably be calling all the gunsmiths that posted here soon to see who has the best route for me to go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Millennium Custom II Posted January 19, 2005 Share Posted January 19, 2005 I guess that I did not make my self clear, If you don’t mind factory fit, buy a stock gun. But if you desire fit and finish that will last you for years to come and not become a rattle snake after few thousand rounds, you should go with a custom gun shop that will listen to you and work with you on this project (its your money.) www.mcguns.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricW Posted January 19, 2005 Share Posted January 19, 2005 Exactly. Between a rock-solid gunsmith fit and Slide Glide, the days of worrying about shooting your gun into a baby rattle before you simply *feel* like changing guns seem pretty much over. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davidwiz Posted January 19, 2005 Share Posted January 19, 2005 If (and stress the IF), it's just as good, why should it matter if the slide was fit by a gunsmith at the factory or the gunsmith you write the check to? Most smiths send various work out anyway-- fancy machining, bluing, chroming, whatever. Why not ask your smith to rifle the barrel while they're at it? While I agree that some gunsmiths do send work out, it is usually on the order of doing machine checkering on a CNC, specialty welding, etc - meaning, the exact same work that the gunsmith who does these dealers services does for his own customers. I have yet to see a factory slide/frame/barrel fit that was as good as a gunsmith doing it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BEDELLCUSTOM Posted January 19, 2005 Share Posted January 19, 2005 like all the others said, i also build all my guns with oversize parts. i prefer to do all the slide/frame fits myself, as well as ramp and bridge cuts. the price you pay for a custom built gun is a reflection of the amount of extra time your gunsmith puts into building it as compared to an "off the shelf " gun. some custom guns cost alot more than others, this is where it is up to the customer to do their homework and see if they are going to be paying alot more but not getting alot more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SRT Driver Posted January 20, 2005 Share Posted January 20, 2005 This seems to be more of a philosopical question than anything. Several 'smiths that I'm aware of use short blocks and a few long blocks to build the basic pistol..the low end-put something in the safe version. Experience shows that these are better than the average "production" gun but not the "full custom" that most 'smiths send into the AGP as their "get me in the club" gun. One smith told me "get XYZ fitted frame and slide...have them do the checkering, beavertail cut, ramp cut...they do good stuff and CNC machines are getting better all the time. I can do it..but they can do it cheaper." Came out $800 less and works well. His guns have won many National Championships and I liked his honesty. Another said "I like to do the ramp cut, checkering, and fit the slide in house." Took longer and cost more. But it works well too. His, too, have won many National Chamionships. (no, not in my hands!! ) They both shoot better than I can and will last a good long time. It all comes down to money on both sides. A top of the line 'smith has to devote boucoup time to get it just right .. some not quite as much. But machine time is billable and it takes away from other projects. This makes the bottom line more important as there are only so many hours in a day. More time, higher cost. Rumor has it that this is why one big name smith is not doing Signature Series Single Stacks anymore. Maybe even his 2011 stuff too. Glock fiber optic sights are more lucrative..margins are lower. Higher volume, higher margins = more money. Business is business and the 80's and early 90's are gone when demand was pretty high. Some 'Smiths are efficient (use more machinery), Some like to hand fit (that is how they know how to do it) But if they put their name on it..they'll stick by their work. It all comes down to time and time costs money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jjanglin Posted January 20, 2005 Share Posted January 20, 2005 Time maybe to a certain extent? Some smiths myself included just enjoy working on and building guns.A lot of my time never gets billed! Im retired from the military and dont depend on the guns to make a living I just enjoy it and I like the shooters= who are to my view some of the best people going. It is very satisfying to go to amatch or hear of one that the shooters using one of my guns did well. Having fun is what its all about to me. Jim/Pa Sailors custom Pistols Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RKooi Posted January 20, 2005 Share Posted January 20, 2005 I'm not a gunsmith, nor do I play one on TV. I appreciate and admire the work that a quality gunsmith does (including those posting here.) But I have to agree with SRT Driver. If you can tell the difference between a PROPERLY hand fit slide/frame and one PROPERLY fit by a machine then more power to you (and yes, I have had both.) As long as the 'smith is honest and doesn't misrepresent his work, what is the problem? I know there are those that will spend >$4000 and wait over a year for a gun just because. If that is what you want to do, great. Just don't think you are going to be wielding a pistol that is any more capable than the guy with an extra $1500 in his pocket that has been shooting his new gun for 11 months. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Little Bill Posted January 20, 2005 Share Posted January 20, 2005 I'm not a gunsmith, nor do I play one on TV. I appreciate and admire the work that a quality gunsmith does (including those posting here.) But I have to agree with SRT Driver. If you can tell the difference between a PROPERLY hand fit slide/frame and one PROPERLY fit by a machine then more power to you (and yes, I have had both.) As long as the 'smith is honest and doesn't misrepresent his work, what is the problem? I know there are those that will spend >$4000 and wait over a year for a gun just because. If that is what you want to do, great. Just don't think you are going to be wielding a pistol that is any more capable than the guy with an extra $1500 in his pocket that has been shooting his new gun for 11 months. Amen. The tool won't take you where you want to go. Hard work will. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Hostetter Posted January 21, 2005 Share Posted January 21, 2005 Actually you should easily be able to tell the difference between a frame/slide that was fit using a mill and one that has been hand lapped in with 800 grit lapping compound. As to the value in having one hand lapped in, that is up to the individual. All of our guns are hand lapped........ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Huston in Austin Posted January 21, 2005 Share Posted January 21, 2005 Just thought I'd through my .02 in. I've watched Dawson build lots of pistols. Open, Limited, Single stack and 2011. Every slide to frame fit is done by Dave from over size slides and frames. You can tell the differenc between a factory fit and a custom fit even if you didn't know the difference before you will after you rack the slide on each. Huston in Austin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Millennium Custom II Posted January 21, 2005 Share Posted January 21, 2005 I agree that working hard will take you there, but only with reliable equipement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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