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shootingchef

2015 Area 4 championship

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This match was very fun and EXTREMELY Challenging. I hope everyone enjoyed themselves. Ken, Deron and Lee you gentlemen did an exceptional job. Thank you for hosting this match and rest assured you will always have controversy and naysayers. You have a thankless job that make you easy targets when things don't go the way a competitor likes. You all have my utmost respect and admiration as do all the MDs and RMs for matches I've been to.

Great seeing everyone (Staff and competitors alike).

Good seeing you Mark.

Thanks!

Lee

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I hope results get posted on uspsa.org ...the new, improved practiscore doesn't show individual results and the performance matrix.

On the new scoring format, (which shows a filter menu on the left), each competitor's name is a link to individual summary results. From there, there is a "..." detail button which shows each stages A, B C hits, penalties, etc. You can also put two competitor's side by side, and see stage by stage comparisons.

Our club match got posted this way, but I notice Area 4 is not using the NEW format, just an updated OLD format. Maybe its based on when it was first set up.

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It was a good tough match for sure. I shot terrible, but that's on me. Kudos to the staff for sticking it out 4 days in the heat and dust.

The issue with Stage 5 was there was no rearward fault line closing off the previous shooting area before the stairs, so at a literal reading, the top of the stairs was out-of-bounds and that made little sense. That's where the Thursday confusion came from. I believe the RO's Friday through Sunday ran it consistently the other way. At least they did when I was there.

Here's a screengrab from a Youtube of somebody that shot from the ropes, with the fault lines highlighted at rear to illustrate the fault-line confusion. Something to keep in mind for stage designers...

post-1846-867_thumb.jpg

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Hands down best match I've attended. Hotter than blazes, but the organizers went above and beyond making sure everyone had access to water. Thanks to all that put this on.

Just curious...I don't mind moving up in placement, but what happened to the guy I thought had won Single Stack? He is listed on Practiscore and missing on USPSA. Screen caps below.

post-37644-0-02503100-1441642299_thumb.p

post-37644-0-68128200-1441642311_thumb.p

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Hands down best match I've attended. Hotter than blazes, but the organizers went above and beyond making sure everyone had access to water. Thanks to all that put this on.

Just curious...I don't mind moving up in placement, but what happened to the guy I thought had won Single Stack? He is listed on Practiscore and missing on USPSA. Screen caps below.

John was actually shooting Limited and was moved to the proper division. Practiscore will be updated when it will let me. I guess the new update has a few issues.

Lee

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It was a good tough match for sure. I shot terrible, but that's on me. Kudos to the staff for sticking it out 4 days in the heat and dust.

The issue with Stage 5 was there was no rearward fault line closing off the previous shooting area before the stairs, so at a literal reading, the top of the stairs was out-of-bounds and that made little sense. That's where the Thursday confusion came from. I believe the RO's Friday through Sunday ran it consistently the other way. At least they did when I was there.

Here's a screengrab from a Youtube of somebody that shot from the ropes, with the fault lines highlighted at rear to illustrate the fault-line confusion. Something to keep in mind for stage designers...

I will agree another rear fault line would have made it more clear, I am sorry with bright florescent orange painted lines that look like ALL the other fault lines in the match were not clear enough. Will do better next time by being more clear, maybe flashing purple LED fault lines.

Lee

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I'm surprised to see shooting boxes used at a Level 3 match, isn't that Level 1 only (and further limited to short and medium courses)?

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I'm surprised to see shooting boxes used at a Level 3 match, isn't that Level 1 only (and further limited to short and medium courses)?

I am surprised that fault lines delineating the shooting area is now considered "shooting boxes". ;)

If we are doing that then every match I have shot.....ever.....has had shooting boxes.

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My reference to shooting boxes refers to a small, quadrangular designation of a specific location from which a particular array or subset of targets within a course of fire must be engaged, separate and distinct from the shooting area at large.

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My reference to shooting boxes refers to a small, quadrangular designation of a specific location from which a particular array or subset of targets within a course of fire must be engaged, separate and distinct from the shooting area at large.

That was just another place to engage that array. There were other locations to engage them as well. Nothing was required other than shooting from within the fault lines.

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It was a good tough match for sure. I shot terrible, but that's on me. Kudos to the staff for sticking it out 4 days in the heat and dust.

The issue with Stage 5 was there was no rearward fault line closing off the previous shooting area before the stairs, so at a literal reading, the top of the stairs was out-of-bounds and that made little sense. That's where the Thursday confusion came from. I believe the RO's Friday through Sunday ran it consistently the other way. At least they did when I was there.

Here's a screengrab from a Youtube of somebody that shot from the ropes, with the fault lines highlighted at rear to illustrate the fault-line confusion. Something to keep in mind for stage designers...

I will agree another rear fault line would have made it more clear, I am sorry with bright florescent orange painted lines that look like ALL the other fault lines in the match were not clear enough. Will do better next time by being more clear, maybe flashing purple LED fault lines.

Lee

Without closing off the rearward shooting area, however obvious, those lines delineate the enclosed areas to be 'out', not 'in'. The WSB can clarify that but on Thursday and Friday it didn't. Fridays ROs kept it consistent but on Thursday different squads had different interpretations.

The people I heard talking on Thursday wondered if the paint might be leftover from the Cowtown match since they couldn't figure out the purpose of them. They probably should have tracked down the RM for a ruling, but I suspect some of them found it convenient to shoot from the stairs.

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Stage 5: The WSB was very clear that targets were to be shot only from within the fault lines. The stage had a double sided set of stairs that led to a very clearly marked fault line area (1x2's painted florescent orange like ALL other fault lines in the match). If you were in the shooting area indicated by the fault lines the target presentation was very tough. If you were standing outside the shooting area the targets were completely and fully visible. As a significant advantage was gained by shooting the 3 targets from the stairs outside the fault lines I issued 6 procedurals. Per rule 3.2.3 I clarified where targets could be engaged on the WSB to attempt to reduce recurrences. As to folks saying the RO's shot it differently and not receiving said procedurals, I was not able to confirm that anyone actually did that.

Lee,

Not able to confirm it?

Greg P. who RO'd on Stage 5 for Squad 33 told you that personally shot from the stairs, and multiple squad members did the same. Roy told you that he watched Dave B. from Squad 33 shoot from the stairs and was present for that Squad discussing if they needed to shoot from the platform or not. Roy was before your ruling, and when Greg told you, your answer was that I was free to take it to arbitration. Duly noted.

I'm sorry that the first witness, the match RO changed his story, and that you had to make a decision based on dishonest information, but I'd have thought the word of those guys would have been enough for further examination before going to arb.

I'm curious, with multiple people telling you that Squad 33 had people shoot it differently, including one person who did it himself, and RO'd the squad, what kind of confirmation would have been enough?

***EDIT***

Please don't take it as me being argumentative, it's a legit question. I realize that instead of talking to Ken about the arb (and dragging him into this, which I apologize for) I should have gone to you, so I realize I'm wrong, but with the evidence and witnesses right there, not sure what else could have been done on-site. You were very clear that despite what both people told you they saw and did, that you had made your official decision. Post match I found another member who was part of the discussion and who saw people shoot it that way.....Note I'm not upset, or accusing you or Ken of anything. You guys put on a great match, with a staff that worked extremely hard, and I appreciate it. As I said, I'm just sorry that the match RO changed his story when you asked him, his honesty may have put a different spin on the whole thing.

Edited by sundevil827

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Stage 5: The WSB was very clear that targets were to be shot only from within the fault lines. The stage had a double sided set of stairs that led to a very clearly marked fault line area (1x2's painted florescent orange like ALL other fault lines in the match). If you were in the shooting area indicated by the fault lines the target presentation was very tough. If you were standing outside the shooting area the targets were completely and fully visible. As a significant advantage was gained by shooting the 3 targets from the stairs outside the fault lines I issued 6 procedurals. Per rule 3.2.3 I clarified where targets could be engaged on the WSB to attempt to reduce recurrences. As to folks saying the RO's shot it differently and not receiving said procedurals, I was not able to confirm that anyone actually did that.

Lee,

Not able to confirm it?

Greg P. who RO'd on Stage 5 for Squad 33 told you that personally shot from the stairs, and multiple squad members did the same. Roy told you that he watched Dave B. from Squad 33 shoot from the stairs and was present for that Squad discussing if they needed to shoot from the platform or not. Roy was before your ruling, and when Greg told you, your answer was that I was free to take it to arbitration. Duly noted.

I'm sorry that the first witness, the match RO changed his story, and that you had to make a decision based on dishonest information, but I'd have thought the word of those guys would have been enough for further examination before going to arb.

I'm curious, with multiple people telling you that Squad 33 had people shoot it differently, including one person who did it himself, and RO'd the squad, what kind of confirmation would have been enough?

***EDIT***

Please don't take it as me being argumentative, it's a legit question. I realize that instead of talking to Ken about the arb (and dragging him into this, which I apologize for) I should have gone to you, so I realize I'm wrong, but with the evidence and witnesses right there, not sure what else could have been done on-site. You were very clear that despite what both people told you they saw and did, that you had made your official decision. Post match I found another member who was part of the discussion and who saw people shoot it that way.....Note I'm not upset, or accusing you or Ken of anything. You guys put on a great match, with a staff that worked extremely hard, and I appreciate it. As I said, I'm just sorry that the match RO changed his story when you asked him, his honesty may have put a different spin on the whole thing.

I am going to end my discussion of this topic by saying I made a ruling based on the best information I had at the time. There is a clear process for escalation beyond my ruling for which the shooter was offered. Ya'll (you all for non-Texans :-) ) can beat this horse some more but that is it for me. No offense taken, see you guys on the range where I hope we can all do it better next time.

Lee

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John shot Limited. we are working on it.

John was in our squad. I didn't ask him but it appeared he was shooting SS minor. Just my observation.

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Lee,

That's fair, I've still got a couple questions, but I'd rather take 'em offline, maybe next time I see you over at Waco, and I'll pick up a post match beer.

You did offer the arb, and in hindsight I should have taken it, and I should have known the arb rules better than I did. I admit, one hour after a match to find shooters who shot the day before was not easy, and I wanted, and did not go re-read my rule book, at which point I've come to you, and not gone and dragged poor Ken into this.

Cheers

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It sound to me allot like the stage was run and rulled as was "intended" by the stage designer, the problem with that is the rules do not support "intention" I have had many stages gamed and had shooters find huge holes in my written stage descriptions, it's part of the sport and not a shooters issue. As match officials we have to suck it up and rule on what is written and the stage as it is actually set up that's it, if you wanted them to do something and through some loose hole left open in the stage brief or a slight change to how the stage was actually set up and somebody figures out that they don't have to do it, then great for them.

Edited by bikerburgess

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It sound to me allot like the stage was run and rulled as was "intended" by the stage designer, the problem with that is the rules do not support "intention" I have had many stages gamed and had shooters find huge holes in my written stage descriptions, it's part of the sport and not a shooters issue. As match officials we have to suck it up and rule on what is written and the stage as it is actually set up that's it, if you wanted them to do something and through some loose hole left open in the stage brief or a slight change to how the stage was actually set up and somebody figures out that they don't have to do it, then great for them.

How it "sounds to you" is irrelevant. The rest of your post is a conclusion based on your own confusion.

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It was a good tough match for sure. I shot terrible, but that's on me. Kudos to the staff for sticking it out 4 days in the heat and dust.

The issue with Stage 5 was there was no rearward fault line closing off the previous shooting area before the stairs, so at a literal reading, the top of the stairs was out-of-bounds and that made little sense. That's where the Thursday confusion came from. I believe the RO's Friday through Sunday ran it consistently the other way. At least they did when I was there.

Here's a screengrab from a Youtube of somebody that shot from the ropes, with the fault lines highlighted at rear to illustrate the fault-line confusion. Something to keep in mind for stage designers...

I will agree another rear fault line would have made it more clear, I am sorry with bright florescent orange painted lines that look like ALL the other fault lines in the match were not clear enough. Will do better next time by being more clear, maybe flashing purple LED fault lines.

Lee

I don't see a reason to be a xxxx about it.

Anyone who looked at that stage, would agree, that the fault lines on top of the stairs appeared to be defining the top as out of bounds.

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Keep this civil or it will be closed very quickly..

Geez, just when I was putting butter on my popcorn

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I've only done this for a year and a half or so but when I see orange lines shaped in a box on top of a platform I assume it's a shooting area. Maybe I just like to keep it simple.

ETA- I took one look from the platform and realized it was a waste of time to go down there anyway. I was told none of the top guys went down there either.

Edited by copecowboy22

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The stage breifing, if it was read the same to every squad on saturday and sunday, defined the shooting area as to be within the fault lines on top of the stairs. Seemed pretty simple to me but nobody on our squad used the stairs anyways. We shot it as our 3rd stage for the match.

Edited by Prov1x

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