Saw some silly stuff at the pro am today

[MarkCO]

Pat, is "old school" still younger than just "old"? No matter your chronological age, in my book, you still have a youthful demeanor that I admire.

Brian, I have admired what you guys have done for your new shooters, and it is something our core group in Colorado is going to copy in some part in 2015.

All competitors, new, old, old school, using a sponsor slot or not, should be treated in a fair, consistent and courteous manner.

[Onagoth]

The first time an RO is named in a civil suit, action shooting sports are done.

I think you're probably right.

No he's not.

If RO's start being named in civil suits, you can bet I won't be ROing for very long. Shooting sports would have to offer RO insurance.

[Paul-the new guy]

Pat is my 3 gun hero... "sensei show me the way to zen mode... how about you just learn to shoot" Best comment I ever heard!

[Tech32]

I have a buddy that is known to forget to put his plugs in. He will shoot a stage and say he didn't realize it. The RO usually apologizes for not noticing. I think he's a dumbass for not putting in his plugs, but I don't think it should earn him a DQ. We were told you can stop after the first couple shots and start over if you forget. Is this correct?

I don't think a DQ should be given, but, neither is a reshoot. But, if those are the rules, they are the rules. The same as any other rule.

It's kind of like a teen whose parents keep buying them a car when they wreck the current one. No skin in the game. When they have to pay for the car, their driving suddenly gets much better.

Good point. I didn't think of it that way. I guess that would teach him to remember.

[Tech32]

The first time an RO is named in a civil suit, action shooting sports are done.

I think you're probably right.

No he's not.

If RO's start being named in civil suits, you can bet I won't be ROing for very long. Shooting sports would have to offer RO insurance.

Ha! Will my local State Farm agent offer that?

[Stlhead]

Mr. New guy,

I am sorry that you had a less than hospitable experience. While it is very regrettable, you can not paint an entire sport, or matches that you have not attended with a brush dipped in the ass hattery of one or two people at a single match. I can assure you that if you come up to any one of my teammates, or me at any match or even before or after a match, we will treat you with some respect and offer any assistance that we can provide just as if you where a long lost teammate. We provide beverages and recreational opportunities to all without regard to race, religion, ability, or sex. But if you act like a douche bag expect to be called on it. While like any sport there are a few dickwads in 3 gun, I can say that the majority are some of the best people that you will ever meet. I have been very fortunate over the years to shoot with some very entertaining folks. Give it a few more matches before you start trying to overthrow the system, if you did not like the Pro-Am, don't go back. Take a shot at some other matches, even better some matches in other parts of the country, different regions seem to have a little different flavor.

[Stlhead]

The first time an RO is named in a civil suit, action shooting sports are done.

I think you're probably right.

No he's not.

If RO's start being named in civil suits, you can bet I won't be ROing for very long. Shooting sports would have to offer RO insurance.

Ha! Will my local State Farm agent offer that?

I am not an insurance professional, and my opinion is worth exactly what you paid for it, but I believe they do. It is called a personal liability umbrella, if you have any assets that you wish to have protected from todays excessively litigious society it could be a good idea to look into an insurance product. No need to run around yelling the sky is falling, because it did a long time ago, best to just be proactive and wear a helmet, especially one with a flashing light on it and preferably a siren.

[Paul-the new guy]

Mr. New guy,

I am sorry that you had a less than hospitable experience. While it is very regrettable, you can not paint an entire sport, or matches that you have not attended with a brush dipped in the ass hattery of one or two people at a single match. I can assure you that if you come up to any one of my teammates, or me at any match or even before or after a match, we will treat you with some respect and offer any assistance that we can provide just as if you where a long lost teammate. We provide beverages and recreational opportunities to all without regard to race, religion, ability, or sex. But if you act like a douche bag expect to be called on it. While like any sport there are a few dickwads in 3 gun, I can say that the majority are some of the best people that you will ever meet. I have been very fortunate over the years to shoot with some very entertaining folks. Give it a few more matches before you start trying to overthrow the system, if you did not like the Pro-Am, don't go back. Take a shot at some other matches, even better some matches in other parts of the country, different regions seem to have a little different flavor.

Every match I have shot so far has been great. I have been on some really good squads and I have had a blast. The bad experience I spoke of was a result of the person responding not thinking about being on a radio and saying something that would have been better for me not to hear. Like I said, I know I am new to the sport, this is my first year, and I understand that I am not due the same respect as more seasoned shooters. It is ok to know that but it kind of sucks to hear it...

I hope I didn't come across as not liking the Pro-Am. So far it has been my best finish even with a stage DQ! 48th out of 244 or so; I will take that. The things I mentioned above, I just thought were different than what I expected. I may have used the wrong words when I said silly. I do come from a pistol background and was thinking along those lines. I chose the matches I did and left some out because frankly I was scared... I got in task force dagger and then started reading about it... Yeah I am too fat and too old for that so I backed out. This thread has been very educational for me. and I thank you all for helping me see things from another view point.

I wish I could travel to farther matches but my funding and my vacation time make that tough. I am already starting 2015; 3 vacation days in the hole.

[CJW]

I don't think a DQ should be given, but, neither is a reshoot. But, if those are the rules, they are the rules. The same as any other rule.

It's kind of like a teen whose parents keep buying them a car when they wreck the current one. No skin in the game. When they have to pay for the car, their driving suddenly gets much better.

I didn't start this conversation thinking that a DQ for shooting without eyes/ears was a good idea, but I look at it this way.

Every rule set (I am pretty sure) says point the muzzle in a safe direction; this is a basic safety rule. If you violate this, you go home.

Every rule set (I am pretty sure) says that eye and ear pro are mandatory; this is a basic safety rule, however it usually appears in the "range rules" section of the document and not the "Dairy Queen" section of the document. Location notwithstanding, we already all understand that violation of safety rules leads to disqualification. Well, if eye and ear pro are declared mandatory for safety, and I try to avoid the time hit for fixing dislodged equipment by shooting through and violating the mandatory eye and ear pro safety rules, well, that should lead to disqualification, right?

As for how it is handled, I could see it being a lot like a 180 rule. Shooter is breaking shots rapidly when a tree branch eats the ear muffs and another one or two shots go off (at blazing .17 splits, so not too much time), well, that's like, "Is that 179-degrees or 180-degrees?" In the latter, the RO might yell, "Muzzle!" as a warning. Well, in the former the RO can yell, "Ears!" as a warning. If the shooter blows past the 180 line, or switches to a new target array and keeps blazing after the ears come off, then there is no doubt when the RO stops the shooter and sends him home.

[LEW45]

...When match starts MD is done and RM takes over and makes all calls and decisions.

Now that is funny...

[MarkCO]

I have carried a personal umbrella policy since I turned 21 and moved out of my parents house. Everyone should check into it. However, insurance is an admission that personal responsibility and "big boy" rules are NA, which, admittedly is where we are at in America.

[LEW45]

Don't know why you think that's funny? That's how this match works. Gary's job is done when the match starts. All stage interpretations, calibrations, any problems the RO's have and any reshoots or DQ's are made by the RM's. range masters Joe Harris n John Harris.

[MarkCO]

He thinks it is funny because at RM3G, JJ and Denise do not turn what they built over to anyone to make final calls. They wear both hats through their entire match and make all the calls. It is the only major I am aware of that does it that way. They work at it hard, and there are technically two of them, although sometimes it seems like there are three or four of them.

[gunfighteruk]

Hi Paul -the-new guy.

Trial by forum is a wonderful thing - after seven pages of butt hurt no one has the balls to ask the RO on the stage.

I was running the timer.

A call was made to Joe after you parted with your hearing protection.

My call was right according to Joe.

Buck stop's with Joe as RM

End of.

[Paul-the new guy]

Hi Paul -the-new guy.

Trial by forum is a wonderful thing - after seven pages of butt hurt no one has the balls to ask the RO on the stage.

I was running the timer.

A call was made to Joe after you parted with your hearing protection.

My call was right according to Joe.

Buck stop's with Joe as RM

End of.

It wasn't me. I was just bringing it up here.

[Tech32]

The first time an RO is named in a civil suit, action shooting sports are done.

I think you're probably right.

No he's not.

If RO's start being named in civil suits, you can bet I won't be ROing for very long. Shooting sports would have to offer RO insurance.

Ha! Will my local State Farm agent offer that?

I am not an insurance professional, and my opinion is worth exactly what you paid for it, but I believe they do. It is called a personal liability umbrella, if you have any assets that you wish to have protected from todays excessively litigious society it could be a good idea to look into an insurance product. No need to run around yelling the sky is falling, because it did a long time ago, best to just be proactive and wear a helmet, especially one with a flashing light on it and preferably a siren.

Check. I'm covered then. I can take my RO class now!

[Dan Sierpina]

I was looking at FNH's rules. It does say that eye and ear protection are mandatory. It also says Participants MAY be subject to disqualification for violation. My italics on the word "May". Common sense should prevail in that case.

[Stlhead]

Where did you get the helmet? They are getting harder to find now a days.

[Religious Shooter]

As a RO with partial hearing loss, I will not allow YOU, as a competitor, to continue the stage without proper hearing and eye protection. A RO has to monitor the gun(s) and the actions of the competitor. If I see hearing protection accidentally come off, then I will stop YOU, the competitor, and award a re-shoot. If I monitor your body movements and see an intentional act of protection removal, then you will get a stage DQ or a match DQ for unsportsmanlike conduct. I don't care how long a re-shoot will cost the squad or match...hearing loss is not an option.

How about you stop him and make the shooter put his PPE's back on and have him continue to shoot? All on the clock.

Don't make the rest of the squad reset the stage twice and potentially back up the entire stage.

Giving them a reshoot isn't in the rules in the vast majority of three gun matches. As mentioned before it's been like this for 30+ years.

[MarkCO]

I've seen some "Pros" weasel a re-shoot for a lot less than misplaced ear protection. Maybe the focus could shift to halting those occurrences, that have no safety risk, before the odd one, maybe two re-shoots that might occur per match. I've been ROing for close to 20 years, 8 in 3Gun, RM a few matches a year and still have never had to address a re-shoot for displaced eye or ear protection.

[alma]

If an RO is trying to have a conversation with me on the clock I deserve a reshoot or a DQ.

[Bryan 45]

If an RO is trying to have a conversation with me on the clock I deserve a reshoot or a DQ.

Conversation would imply 2 way verbal communication. The RO doesn't need a verbal response.

And if you consider the RO directing a shooter to reinstall their ear pro a conversation, there are 3-4 major match directors in this thread telling you this is not correct.

[fireman489]

Wouldnt all this be solved ( or at least the hearing protection part) if everyone wore molded plugs like the Hear Pro team makes ?? I never understood why people want to use muffs while on the clock ? I would think it would interfere w my cheek weld & POSSIBLY FALL OFF ??? Just my thoughts as another rookie 3 gunner ?? & NO I am not affiliated w Hear Pro in any way .... I dont even own a pair ... (I got the cheap molded kind). Pauly stop kick'n the hornets nest hahahahahahaa

[Rhodie]

I think on the hearing part that the responsibility falls 100% on the shooter. If you lose you hearing protection for one reason or another, you should either replace them or stop shooting. If the shooter makes the decision to continue shooting, they are completely in control of the situation and the poor decision(s) they are making. I say completely in control because they know that each time they pull the trigger (save for a mechanical failure or the gun or ammo) they will be exposing their ears to noise levels that can and eventually will damage their hearing. If you want to hit the competitor where it hurts the most during the heat of the moment (their score), make a one line item rule. Failure to wear ear protection while shooting a stage will result in a procedural penalty of X seconds. If you make it 10 or 20 seconds, it will be worth taking the time to stop and fix your hearing protection then continue. If they choose not to stop, they get rewarded double for bad decision making by the potential hearing loss and the penalty to boot.

To back up what fireman was saying, I shoot only with plugs with no cord when I'm shooting long guns. That's because I've knocked off muffs and snagged cords during practice and realized that the risk of that happening during a match isn't worth it. I wear electronic muffs when I'm not shooting and change out to my plugs while I'm on deck.

On the eye protection, I think that the RO needs to intervene if the shooter doesn't stop himself after a shot or two. My thoughts behind that is because the shooter is not 100% in control of what may happen in the way of oil splatter, bullet splash and powder residue. You may shoot the same gun at the same target 1000 times and never get anything in your eye or you may shoot it once and have a piece of lead splash back and put your eye out for good. If the shooter doesn't stop to fix the situation on his own, the RO should stop him and consider the stage scored as-is. Or, possibly let the shooter fix the situation and run a second string from the point of the stop and combine the times for the stage.

[dcloudy777]

If an RO is trying to have a conversation with me on the clock I deserve a reshoot or a DQ.

This doesn't require a "conversation", just a simple warning command similar to the way "MUZZLE" may be used to help a shooter that is getting close to the 180.

A simple "EYES" or "EARS" may be used to by the RO to bring a potential DQ issue to the shooter's attention, provided the RO notices the problem in time to warn. The shooter should not rely on the RO to be able to make this sort of call in time to avoid DQ however, primary responsibility to remain within the rules lies with the shooter. A shooter that fires a shot without ear or eye protection in place is subject to DQ, regardless of whether the RO has issued a warning or not.