Jesse Tischauser Posted August 25, 2014 Share Posted August 25, 2014 Sounds like we should start making eyes and ears optional for everyone since it's not mandatory for the shooter. Great idea fellas! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alma Posted August 25, 2014 Share Posted August 25, 2014 (edited) Lots of tough talking C-class big boys here who don't need no baby sitting. They will gladly tell you what you can do with your concise and well thought out rulebook. Edited August 25, 2014 by alma Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dcloudy777 Posted August 25, 2014 Share Posted August 25, 2014 (edited) If your ear or eye pro gets knocked off by a sling, a vehicle, a doorway, a prop... anything except someone actually interfering with you (with is of course grounds for a reshoot), it's YOUR fault... sometimes life just sucks. Fix it safely , stop shooting and take your score, or keep shooting and get DQ'd... your choice. You guys are making this way more complicated than it should be, and making it much too easy for a shooter to get a mulligan if his/her stage isn't going so well. Edited August 25, 2014 by dcloudy777 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alma Posted August 25, 2014 Share Posted August 25, 2014 If your ear or eye pro gets knocked off by a sling, a vehicle, a doorway, a prop... anything except someone actually interfering with you (with is of course grounds for a reshoot), it's YOUR fault. Fix it safely , stop shooting and take your score, or keep shooting and get DQ'd... your choice. DQed under which rule? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dcloudy777 Posted August 25, 2014 Share Posted August 25, 2014 (edited) If your ear or eye pro gets knocked off by a sling, a vehicle, a doorway, a prop... anything except someone actually interfering with you (with is of course grounds for a reshoot), it's YOUR fault. Fix it safely , stop shooting and take your score, or keep shooting and get DQ'd... your choice. DQed under which rule? Ear and eye protection being mandatory for all competitors and spectators. Actually at most ranges you'd be not only DQ'd but subject to ejection from the property. Edited August 25, 2014 by dcloudy777 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alma Posted August 25, 2014 Share Posted August 25, 2014 If your ear or eye pro gets knocked off by a sling, a vehicle, a doorway, a prop... anything except someone actually interfering with you (with is of course grounds for a reshoot), it's YOUR fault. Fix it safely , stop shooting and take your score, or keep shooting and get DQ'd... your choice. DQed under which rule? Ear and eye protection being mandatory for all competitors and spectators. Actually at most ranges you'd be not only DQ'd but subject to ejection from the property. Pretty sure that isn't in the section of whatever rules that you use where it says "these things can get you DQed" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dcloudy777 Posted August 25, 2014 Share Posted August 25, 2014 Okay counselor. Firing a gun without eye/ear protection in place most certainly constitutes unsafe gun handling and subjects a competitor to a match DQ under rule 2.2 of the Pro-Am rulebook. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P.E. Kelley Posted August 25, 2014 Share Posted August 25, 2014 Steel must fall to score. If you can't knock it down with what you got in your hand you best move on. You can ask for relief after you finish, but best to assume there will be none and roll on. Loose your ear protection and you continue to shoot you are a dumb ass, fix it on the clock in a safe manner or stop yourself and take the penalties. If you are not smart enough to safely put on a pair of ear muffs or plugs then why should you be allowed to handle a loaded gun in the first place? We do not stop shooters for untied shoes and offer them a reshoot either. It is not the job of the RO to make sure you don't go deaf, it's to try and keep the shooter from shooting himself or someone else first, and to keep the time and call the game second. There is no need to endlessly debate the call for more or less rules, if you do not like the rules for a match don't go! And don't bitch about the lack of rules at a match when you chose to go to that match knowing full well what rules were and were not going to apply. Arguing about the rules of a match AFTER that match is over is a load of crap. If 3 gun becomes like USPSA there will be more open slots at matches, because I will certainly be spending my free time doing other things. If you want to play the USPSA game then just shoot USPSA matches, don't try and change the way others play to suit your tastes. This^^^ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CJW Posted August 25, 2014 Share Posted August 25, 2014 Safety is your responsibility first. The RO has limited ability to stop you from doing stupid stuff, most of the time they make calls based on what you have already done. Yes, RO's can and do stop some stupid or unthinking maneuvers but as I said generally we shooters make our mistakes too fast to be stopped midstream. On ear and eye pro...I have not looked through the rules, but I have shot more the a few matches that allow you to safely ground your gun provided you remain within immediate contact. This is not to allow you to transition guns (OK you could do that at SOF) but to facilitate an act that needs two hands. (like putting your protective gear back on). As to the many mentions of loosing ear pro and trying to reinstall it with a pistol in hand YES! it ought to be stopped (and if you point it had your head a DQ for sweeping!) WTF shooter...you have a holster on and THAT is where your handgun goes in this case!!! I am not playing the man up or macho game here Kids...but damn it! we are playing a game with GUNS! YOU need to know what you are doing and how to do it SAFELY as JOB ONE, The RO is there to help YOU do that, but the brunt of that job falls on YOU! I am all for shooters taking responsibility for their own actions, but I pose the following as, shall we say, "Devil's Advocate" issues... A shooter dislodges eye protection; RO does not stop the stage and shooter keeps going, eventually getting some sort of splash/eye injury. The lawsuit claims the range, the MD, the RM, and the RO are responsible for allowing him to keep shooting unprotected. The plaintiff's lawyer will also claim that the signed waiver is irrelevant, because the negligence on the part of the named defendants caused the issue and negligence can not be waived. A shooter dislodges eye or ear pro, puts rifle on safe and sets it down on the ground to solve the problem. RO DQs him for a weapon on the ground, RM upholds the DQ (or refuses to accept appeal because safety issues are no subject to appeal, which is in a number of rule sets). Shooter says there is no explicit rule against laying down a safe weapon but goes to Dairy Queen anyway. Now the lawsuit is to cover the match expense, the travel expense, the lodging, the value lost off the prize table (extrapolated from finished stages), and the value of his time off work that has been thrown away for nothing. Basis of the lawsuit is breach of (implied) contract, in that the Match Staff published a rule set that did not prevent shooter's action but he was kicked out anyway. The point, I think, is not that shooters need to be coddled. I, for one, think the reshoot for eye/ear pro is a good rule for USPSA pistol, but maybe dealing with your equipment issues on the clock is a good rule for 3-gun in general. On the other hand, both of the above issues are covered by USPSA rules, which is a good argument in favor of Mark's choice to use them. I would say that both issues could be covered in any given rule set with very small modifications: Take the USPSA rule that says a safe weapon can be grounded without DQ so long as the shooter stays within a certain distance (one step) of it. Make it a Match DQ safety infraction to fire a shot from any gun without eye or ear pro in place. Rule 1 says I can use both hands to fix equipment problems. Rule 2 says I have to try and fix the problem and if somebody tries to sue for eye/ear damage, well, then, the rules told him not to do that. Lastly, I would say that some rules out there actually make it more difficult to solve this problem. Two things come to mind—there are rules that disallow reholstering and there are rules that disallow grabbing a gun back out of a dump barrel. So, if I am someplace like that and the rules do not make it clear that I can ground a safe gun outside of the dump barrels to address equipment issues, then it appears I am being penalized by more than just the time used; I am basically forced to abandon one of my guns and any targets I still need to engage with it just to fix my ears if I need two hands. So, in summary, pointing out that some rules modifications might be helpful is not saying that the shooter needs to be relieved of common sense, rather it is to point out that the more clear-cut the shooter's options are for dealing with a situation without getting himself DQed, the better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dcloudy777 Posted August 25, 2014 Share Posted August 25, 2014 The first time an RO is named in a civil suit, action shooting sports are done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Camazama Posted August 25, 2014 Share Posted August 25, 2014 (edited) If your ear or eye pro gets knocked off by a sling, a vehicle, a doorway, a prop... anything except someone actually interfering with you (with is of course grounds for a reshoot), it's YOUR fault... sometimes life just sucks. Fix it safely , stop shooting and take your score, or keep shooting and get DQ'd... your choice. You guys are making this way more complicated than it should be, and making it much too easy for a shooter to get a mulligan if his/her stage isn't going so well. I was just reviewing several sets of rule books for different 3-gun matches and I haven't seen anywhere that states if someone interferes with you it's ground for a reshoot. Please correct me if I've missed something. Edited August 25, 2014 by Camazama Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CJW Posted August 25, 2014 Share Posted August 25, 2014 I was just reviewing several sets of rule books for different 3-gun matches and I haven't seen anywhere that states if someone interferes with you it's ground for a reshoot. Well, I would certainly take that argument to the Range Master. After all, if we are all agreeing that the shooter is responsible for his own actions, then that implies I should be left alone (so long as I don't get stopped for safety issue) to go about it. The one that particularly comes to mind—and I have seen this happen more than once—is a stage that requires the shooter to dump a gun and run back uprange to get the next gun, only to find out that there is now an RO downrange of him. If that happens at a major, I am going to stop myself because it is unacceptable to be handling a loaded gun with a person downrange. I am then going to tell the RO that I will take my reshoot at the end of the squad so I can get my equipment ready for another run. If said reshoot is not forthcoming, there will be some words exchanged with the RM and the MD. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dcloudy777 Posted August 25, 2014 Share Posted August 25, 2014 No wonder the USPSA rulebook has to be so thick. I suppose I'm going to do well at FNH next month because I'm going to just drive my truck down to the long-range flashers and poke them with a stick. Can I start the engine at LAMR, or do I have to turn the key on the clock? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P.E. Kelley Posted August 25, 2014 Share Posted August 25, 2014 OK, I guess my replies are too long. DQ for shooting with out ear and or eye pro. The rules do allow for you to restore them "on the clock" (ground long-guns and holster pistols to facilitate) RO's do the best they can to help with safety but the onus in ON the shooter. In the extreme case JT of someone only running ONE set of ear pro and that one set is muffs and those muffs are "in the car" STOP the shooter and call it scored as is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alma Posted August 25, 2014 Share Posted August 25, 2014 So, DQ as soon as hear pro is dislodged if a shot is fired? All or none, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryan 45 Posted August 25, 2014 Share Posted August 25, 2014 A long, long time ago, I can still remember, how that music use to make me smile..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul-the new guy Posted August 25, 2014 Author Share Posted August 25, 2014 If you're going to do the ridiculous optional target thing you gotta calibrate steal with the gun that has the least likelihood of knocking the target down at the closest possible location to it. You can't expect shooters to guess which gun will knock it over. We don't calibrate pistol steal with a .45 when the minimum allowable caliber is a 9mm. THIS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryan 45 Posted August 25, 2014 Share Posted August 25, 2014 (edited) If you're going to do the ridiculous optional target thing you gotta calibrate steal with the gun that has the least likelihood of knocking the target down at the closest possible location to it. You can't expect shooters to guess which gun will knock it over. We don't calibrate pistol steal with a .45 when the minimum allowable caliber is a 9mm. THIS Several of the stage briefs also allowed paper and steel to be engaged with pistol or rifle. But did anyone engage the 200 yard flashers with pistol? BJ Norris didn't, and he's probably one of the few that actually has the skill to be able to hit them with a handgun. Optional shotgun/pistol steel are no different- use the right tool. Just because the stage brief says you can, doesn't mean you should. Edited August 25, 2014 by Bryan 45 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dcloudy777 Posted August 25, 2014 Share Posted August 25, 2014 (edited) So, DQ as soon as hear pro is dislodged if a shot is fired? All or none, right? Pretty much. I as an official would give a shooter the benefit of the doubt if he/she was actually shooting while the protectors came off... you should allow some "reaction time" for a shooter's brain to process the loss of the equipment. If the shooter transitions to another target, or moves, or does any sort of deliberate action without trying to replace the missing ear/eye pro and then fires a shot without it, DQ. Edited August 25, 2014 by dcloudy777 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vlad Posted August 25, 2014 Share Posted August 25, 2014 (edited) OK, I guess my replies are too long. DQ for shooting with out ear and or eye pro. The rules do allow for you to restore them "on the clock" (ground long-guns and holster pistols to facilitate) RO's do the best they can to help with safety but the onus in ON the shooter. In the extreme case JT of someone only running ONE set of ear pro and that one set is muffs and those muffs are "in the car" STOP the shooter and call it scored as is. So what does this accomplish or prove? I get what you think should be done, what I don't get is why. How does it enhance the experience for everyone, or affect the competitive fairness? How does doing it different affect it? I mean, I get that if the answer is "real men mind their ears pro, and we are testing if you are real man" then I suppose we can stop discussing it, I'm asking about what you are trying to test with this sort of rule in the context of competitive shooting event, specially when you look at the possible negatives folks like to ignore or fail to address (such as lawyers). As my buddy joked today, there are at least two sets of rules at every 3 gun match, if you are lucky, the rules written on paper and the rules of the world outside the paper. You can't really ignore the second set for too long before they catch up to you. If you are unlucky, then you also have unwritten match rules you are supposed to somehow guess. Edited August 25, 2014 by Vlad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dcloudy777 Posted August 25, 2014 Share Posted August 25, 2014 I haven't seen anyone here say that a shooter should "man up" and continue shooting without eye or ear protection. Quite the opposite in fact. What several people here, myself included, have said that your eye/ear pro is just like any other part of your gear. If it breaks of comes off, your match just took a serious hit... to get a "do-over" because your gear failed isn't fair... not even a little bit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CJW Posted August 25, 2014 Share Posted August 25, 2014 So what does this accomplish or prove? I get what you think should be done, what I don't get is why. How does it enhance the experience for everyone, or affect the competitive fairness? How does doing it different affect it? Rules in 3-Gun serve three purposes: Define a fair, competitive match in which shooters will want to compete. Keep people safe. Keep people from getting sued. I think Pat was responding (with whatever level of sarcasm or exasperation he felt appropriate ) to my argument above that there is some room to make explicit in the rules what to do in some cases (eye or ear pro dislodged) in order to enhance #2 and #3. It may also affect competitive fairness if it keeps somebody from getting DQ'ed for trying to ground a gun to fix an eyes/ears problem if the rules don't make it clear that they are or are not allowed to do that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vlad Posted August 25, 2014 Share Posted August 25, 2014 Do we all at least agree that we might be able to spare another half sheet of paper in the rule pamphlet to least document this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dcloudy777 Posted August 25, 2014 Share Posted August 25, 2014 Do we all at least agree that we might be able to spare another half sheet of paper in the rule pamphlet to least document this? I got no problem with that. Maybe a clause that allows for the legal grounding and re-using of any gun in any condition provided that: The shooter has at least 1 knee in contact with the ground before the gun is released, The gun is pointed in a safe direction at all times, and The gun is never more that 3 ft from the shooter. This would allow a shooter to have both hands free to fix equipment issues and keep going, while maintaining safety. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jesse Tischauser Posted August 25, 2014 Share Posted August 25, 2014 (edited) I haven't seen anyone here say that a shooter should "man up" and continue shooting without eye or ear protection. Quite the opposite in fact. What several people here, myself included, have said that your eye/ear pro is just like any other part of your gear. If it breaks of comes off, your match just took a serious hit... to get a "do-over" because your gear failed isn't fair... not even a little bit. Your eye and ear pro are the only part of your personal equipment that is also required to not damage your person. If your mag falls out of a pouch or your scope mount comes loose you're not in danger of losing your hearing or vision. Edited August 25, 2014 by Jesse Tischauser Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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