Saw some silly stuff at the pro am today

[fiddler]

I knocked my muffs off at a match today. I put them back on and continued.

[toothandnail]

I knocked my muffs off at a match today. I put them back on and continued.

You must be a wizard

[J.Schmitt]

This IS 3 Gun. You knock your gear loose (other than a dropped gun) put it back on and continue. I

have watched it in USPSA matches first hard, where a competitor messes up a stage and knocks his ear pro

off and whines about a reshoot. In 3-Gun pull your pants up and resume shooting!

Calibration??? You made the call to shoot pew, pew loads at a popper that may or not be calibrated. The course description

provided for shotgun or pistol on that popper...If you didn't think to check it, then kid...you bought it.

Maybe more rules, maybe not. Logic IMHO seems to work. It is LOGICAL to restore YOUR personal protection devices before

continuing on. or should one unplug the light fixture after getting shocked or just continue on?

Yes. If somebody intentionally does it, out of here. If you continue on and have no ear pro-you are just stupid. Put your gun down on the ground, on safe, don't move , and put your ear pro on/in, and resume course of fire. I'm gonna go practice put ear pro back in on the clock. Never know.

Jade I am pretty sure if you lay your gun on the ground you are getting a stage DQ on safe or not

I have not seen that as the case or in any rule before. I have not read the proam rules however. But I as a match director I would encourage it. Our particular rules don't prohibit setting a gun down. Common sense would dictate that as long as the shooter maintains control of the gun, not walking away from it or something, this would be acceptable.

Jay

[CJW]

I have not seen that as the case or in any rule before. I have not read the proam rules however. But I as a match director I would encourage it. Our particular rules don't prohibit setting a gun down. Common sense would dictate that as long as the shooter maintains control of the gun, not walking away from it or something, this would be acceptable.

This is actually the best argument for somewhat more comprehensive rules. Whether or not the rules allow me or the RO to call stop if my ear pro falls off, I don't think any of the outlaw 3-Gun matches I have shot specifically address grounding guns on purpose. They talk about dropped guns and they talk about abandoning in proper dump barrels. At least under USPSA I know exactly how I am allowed to ground my pistol in accordance with the rules.

So, the issue for me would be if I knocked my ears off and needed to put them back on and, for whatever reason, I need two hands, then I either need to decide (with no good input from the rules) on the clock whether I can put my gun down (and, if I do so, what condition it has to be in) or I get to have a rules discussion with the RO with the time running.

It's always nice to know how not to get DQ'ed at any given match, I think...

[Sarge]

USPSA pistol rulebook looks better every day!

[MarkCO]

Yes. If somebody intentionally does it, out of here. If you continue on and have no ear pro-you are just stupid. Put your gun down on the ground, on safe, don't move , and put your ear pro on/in, and resume course of fire. I'm gonna go practice put ear pro back in on the clock. Never know.

Jade I am pretty sure if you lay your gun on the ground you are getting a stage DQ on safe or not

Not under USPSA rules. That is an acceptable action.

Fact is, you need to know the ruleset and work within it. Shooting without eye or ear protection for what, is for most of us, recreation, is not a good idea and I would not be in favor of a ruleset that allows it.

[MarkCO]

USPSA pistol rulebook looks better every day!

USPSA has a Multi-Gun rulebook.

[JWS_61]

As hinted at above in more than one post. If the shooter looses his hear pro then lets hope he has the common sense to put it back in place on the clock and continue the stage. It is not about needing more rules.

[openclassterror]

We had a shooter at a local club match bump his ear muffs loose, and he tried to re-set them WITH A HOT PISTOL IN HIS HAND!!!!!! Didn't break the 180, but damn near pointed it at his head. Common sense must be applied in any situation. Common sense says winning a match is NOT worth shooting without ear-pro and suffering permanent hearing loss. Or pointing a gun at your head. As a shooter, if you don't receive instruction from the RO at that moment, apply that common sense and get your ear-pro on. Set the gun down and risk a DQ if necessary, but DON'T wreck your ears. You only get one set, and they only work well once. Coming from a 36 year old who was too stupid to wear earplugs for the first five years of my machining career and now is 80% deaf.

[Paul-the new guy]

One more silly thing... Stage DQ hmmm I kind of like that one.

[AFH]

Silly things…..

1) A shooter makes a poor weapon choice on a stage, so obviously the RO, MD, and RM are doing things wrong and 3-gun needs a consolidated rule set.

2) A shooter makes a poor choice and continues to shoot a stage after losing his hearing protection instead of taking the time to put them back on. Obviously, it is the RO and match that are at fault for not stopping the shooter right away instead of the shooter who should be taking responsibility for his own actions and predicament.

3) Shooters who are new to 3-gun obviously know how matches should be run and how rules should be written, especially those who come from USPSA. This point of view is supported by the fact that the new USPSA Multigun rules made a huge step in the direction of outlaw 3-gun rules after finding that their existing rule set was too cumbersome and did not work well for 3-gun.

5) Obviously, USPSA pistol rules are the best rules for every shooting sport. However, remember to disregard the fact that they are woefully inadequate for 3-gun as has been proven by the new USPSA Multigun rules.

4) Stage DQs are not in the USPSA rulebook so they must be a ridiculous outlaw 3-gun creation.

Doug , Jay, Pat, and JWA_61 are all correct. Heaven forbid that one be deemed responsible for their own actions. Certainly, 3-gun matches should be run like the great nanny state where no-one is held to be responsible for their actions, regardless of how stupid they are.

Before the flaming starts. Safety is a serious responsibility for all organizations, matches, workers, and shooters who participate in shooting whether hunting, working, practicing, or competing. This responsibility is not the sole purview of any one of these entities. It is shared. An RO cannot know whether or not a shooter has double-plugged. As Jay stated regarding the situation described, the ideal reaction of the RO, in my opinion, would have been to stop the shooter, confirmed that he had hear-pro in place or replaced his muffs, and then had him continue the stage. If the shooter chose not to continue the stage, it would be scored as shot. No reshoot would be given. Just as a shooter is responsible for having a holster that will maintain control of his pistol under the vigorous activity of 3-gun courses of fire, he is also responsible for having adequate hearing protection and maintaining it.

Andy

[MarkCO]

USPSA MG rules have stage DQs.

[dmshozer1]

I knocked my muffs off at a match today. I put them back on and continued.

What did you do with your gun while putting your muffs on?

[Paul-the new guy]

So by what you are saying if targets were set that took a .30 cal hit from a rifle to move them that would be ok because no one has to shoot .223? If a shooter knocks his safety glasses of and continues to wail away on steel that is also ok, cause after all it was his fault. I guess coming from other disciplines that have a more defined rule set makes me think some things are silly. Not wrong or right just different and the things I said I thought were silly. For the record the only one that happened to me was the stage DQ and I fully expected a match DQ because I grounded my rifle which had malfunctioned on the trunk of a car instead of in the barrel 10 feet away so I could engage a target right in front of me. It was a stupid rookie mistake. I learn from every match I shoot.

We all have our own opinions that is what makes it fun.

[Jadeslade]

Paul, you have hit on a couple of issues that make outlaw 3 gun (i.e., no defined rule set, just match rules made up for that match) sometimes problematic. Safety rules have been about safety and then about liability. Some matches get it, some don't, some ranges get it, and some don't. Sometimes it comes down to RO's being dialed into their job and being very tuned into each shooter. For an RO to recognize that eyes and ears are not being protected is very important, it is part of the rules for most of our matches so that we take it for granted. It is not always the shooter's fault that ear pro comes off: tight doorways, real vehicles with tight confines, and low positions under stuff can all make that happen. So under those circumstances I think it is a reshoot, with the suggestion of using alternative methods-double plugging, in ear-not cans, whatever. Safety glasses come off, should be a no brainer-stop reshoot. The calibration issue is a constant issue, debated all the time. I think it is good you point this out and bring it up, because hardly anybody does it. There's nothing about being manly in any stage brief, and anybody who want to tell me to "man up" is going to get a bunch of man language back, and there is nothing manly about shooting without eye or ear pro-that's just stupid. 3 gun is awesome and mantastic. DVC

[LoganbillJ]

I dont agree with a reshoot for dislodged eye and ear pro. It is not up to the RO to ensure the shooters equipment is fitted correctly. I do think the RO should tell the shooter to put the eye/ear pro back on. Regardless of what caused the eye/ear pro to come off it needs to be fixed before continuing.

Setting a firearm on the ground safely would not be a DQ of any sort. Assuming the competitor does not go down range of the firearm and stays close to it.

Calibration is tough when it comes to 3 gun specifically pistol. Reason being you have no clue what bunny fart load the competitor is shooting. There is no power factor to establish a base line for calibration.

Our last match a competitor removed his eye pro because they were fogging during a long range rifle portion of a stage. I immediately told him to put them back on before he was even able to fire a shot. ROs need to pay attention to the shooter and what they are doing at all times. That is their job.

[MarkCO]

With the increase in participation, and the change in the demographics, I do think that soon, there could be a situation where an RO/Match/MD/RM/Range, as a collective may find themselves facing a civil lawsuit if the rules in use do not explicitly put safety in front of everything else. That is the main reason I run my matches under USPSA rules. They have the most conservative safety rules, the most vetting by a group of people with experience in a variety of circumstances and afford the most accountability for a match and staff.

There are a few majors I will not shoot nor work because their safety rules, RO capabilities, even MD/RM capabilities are not sufficient in my opinion. You might say that is just the opinion of one guy, but it is also the opinion of a guy who has developed ranges and has been paid (and qualified in court) to render expert opinion on range safety issues and accidental shootings on ranges.

If you think your job as an RO does not place at your feet the primary job of safety for everyone on the range, including eye and ear protection, sorry, you are wrong, and negligent. Trust me, I do not take that lightly, and some may disagree, but realize the very real risk you are assuming if you act in the manner that you are not responsible for the safety of everyone on the range.

Edited August 24, 2014 by MarkCO

[Jadeslade]

Took the words right out of my mouth.

[alma]

Man up! Use common sense. We follow big boy rules. Things commonly heard at Outlaw matches where the shooters are largely at the mercy of the RO or MD who is making it up as they go along rather than giving shooters a clear understanding about how particular scenarios will be dealt with when shooting at that match.

Does the MD really feel that no one ruleset allows them the creativity to set up stages that work for his range? Do they think that the other rules are really too complicated to understand? Maybe it just a power thing where they want to be able to change the rules and dictate how things should be without being held to any particular standards?

I do think that multi gun and outlaw rules have made positive influence on USPSA MG rules, especially when it comes to allowing more flexibility to improve match flow by prepping shotguns and using dump barrels. As much as some feel repressed under non-outlaw rules, as a 3 Gun shooter any not a MD, I want to have the assurance of knowing the rules are known and fixed meaning because it helps to provide equality and consistency across all competitors.

[toothandnail]

Man up! Use common sense. We follow big boy rules. Things commonly heard at Outlaw matches where the shooters are largely at the mercy of the RO or MD who is making it up as they go along rather than giving shooters a clear understanding about how particular scenarios will be dealt with when shooting at that match.

Does the MD really feel that no one ruleset allows them the creativity to set up stages that work for his range? Do they think that the other rules are really too complicated to understand? Maybe it just a power thing where they want to be able to change the rules and dictate how things should be without being held to any particular standards?

I do think that multi gun and outlaw rules have made positive influence on USPSA MG rules, especially when it comes to allowing more flexibility to improve match flow by prepping shotguns and using dump barrels. As much as some feel repressed under non-outlaw rules, as a 3 Gun shooter any not a MD, I want to have the assurance of knowing the rules are known and fixed meaning because it helps to provide equality and consistency across all competitors.

Now we're really getting silly

I have never seen, or shot, a match where the rules were not posted/available to those who wanted them.

[Paul-the new guy]

I dont agree with a reshoot for dislodged eye and ear pro. It is not up to the RO to ensure the shooters equipment is fitted correctly. I do think the RO should tell the shooter to put the eye/ear pro back on. Regardless of what caused the eye/ear pro to come off it needs to be fixed before continuing.

Setting a firearm on the ground safely would not be a DQ of any sort. Assuming the competitor does not go down range of the firearm and stays close to it.

Calibration is tough when it comes to 3 gun specifically pistol. Reason being you have no clue what bunny fart load the competitor is shooting. There is no power factor to establish a base line for calibration.

Our last match a competitor removed his eye pro because they were fogging during a long range rifle portion of a stage. I immediately told him to put them back on before he was even able to fire a shot. ROs need to pay attention to the shooter and what they are doing at all times. That is their job.

Properly fitted had little to do with slipping and falling into a barricade and knocking them off and them rolling 10 feet down a hill... Would you suggest the shooter hand his firearm to the RO to put the hearing or eye protection back or go to a dump barrel? Oh all of the stages had a 100 second par time and it was easy to time out so "ain't nobody got time for dat"

Setting a firearm down safely is still a fire arm on the ground... This seems to be a Very common occurrence in 3 gun. So dropping a gun with out a round in the chamber on the ground is a DQ but setting it down isn't. I can hear a shooter saying I was just putting it down to adjust my poorly fitting ear protection...

Calibration isn't tough at all if a target can be engaged with a range of weapons it should be calibrated to fall with factory ammo from the smallest weapon that can be used on the target. Most often this would be factory 9mm or .223

[alma]

Now we're really getting silly

I have never seen, or shot, a match where the rules were not posted/available to those who wanted them.

It has more to do with the completeness of the posted rules but I have even experienced deviation from what had been posted.

[Vlad]

An RO cannot know whether or not a shooter has double-plugged. As Jay stated regarding the situation described, the ideal reaction of the RO, in my opinion, would have been to stop the shooter, confirmed that he had hear-pro in place or replaced his muffs, and then had him continue the stage. If the shooter chose not to continue the stage, it would be scored as shot. No reshoot would be given.

So you are saying you stop the shooter and presumably interfere with the shooter, but not allow him or her to reshoot? If the shooter was double plugged and would have been fine but now spent 5 seconds of his run answering the RO, he doesn't get a reshoot even though nothing about his performance or actions caused the delay? Personally, I'm thinking once the RO stops a shooter that stage is over. Either the shooter screwed up badly then that stage is what it is, or he didn't and then he deserves a reshoot.

But thats just me.

[toothandnail]

Now we're really getting silly

I have never seen, or shot, a match where the rules were not posted/available to those who wanted them.

It has more to do with the completeness of the posted rules but I have even experienced deviation from what had been posted.

Maybe there should be a rule against that.

[toothandnail]

I dont agree with a reshoot for dislodged eye and ear pro. It is not up to the RO to ensure the shooters equipment is fitted correctly. I do think the RO should tell the shooter to put the eye/ear pro back on. Regardless of what caused the eye/ear pro to come off it needs to be fixed before continuing.

Setting a firearm on the ground safely would not be a DQ of any sort. Assuming the competitor does not go down range of the firearm and stays close to it.

Calibration is tough when it comes to 3 gun specifically pistol. Reason being you have no clue what bunny fart load the competitor is shooting. There is no power factor to establish a base line for calibration.

Our last match a competitor removed his eye pro because they were fogging during a long range rifle portion of a stage. I immediately told him to put them back on before he was even able to fire a shot. ROs need to pay attention to the shooter and what they are doing at all times. That is their job.

Properly fitted had little to do with slipping and falling into a barricade and knocking them off and them rolling 10 feet down a hill... Would you suggest the shooter hand his firearm to the RO to put the hearing or eye protection back or go to a dump barrel? Oh all of the stages had a 100 second par time and it was easy to time out so "ain't nobody got time for dat"

Setting a firearm down safely is still a fire arm on the ground... This seems to be a Very common occurrence in 3 gun. So dropping a gun with out a round in the chamber on the ground is a DQ but setting it down isn't. I can hear a shooter saying I was just putting it down to adjust my poorly fitting ear protection...

Calibration isn't tough at all if a target can be engaged with a range of weapons it should be calibrated to fall with factory ammo from the smallest weapon that can be used on the target. Most often this would be factory 9mm or .223

If the obvious difference there, isn't obvious . . . . . . . . .