Nimitz Posted August 22, 2014 Share Posted August 22, 2014 1. a competitor moves his strong hand closer to his handgun after the "Standby" command but before the 'Start" signal he then returns it to the position required by the WSB. I know there is no penalty for this but what is the relevant rule? 2. A competitor responds to coaching from someone in the gallery.? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vlad Posted August 22, 2014 Share Posted August 22, 2014 1) 8.3.4.1 2) 8.6 covers coaching, you can't guess what the shooter heard or thought so you give him/her the benefit of the doubt, you penalize the coach. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lneel Posted August 22, 2014 Share Posted August 22, 2014 1. 10.2.6 A competitor who is creeping (e.g. moving hands towards the handgun, a reloading device or ammunition) or physically moving to a more advantageous shooting position or posture at the start signal, will incur one procedural penalty. But as you stated they returned to the proper position prior to the start signal so no penalty. 2. 8.6.2 Any person providing interference or unauthorized assistance to a competitor during a course of fire (and the competitor receiving such assistance) may, at the discretion of a Range Officer, incur a procedural penalty for that stage and/or be subject to Section 10.6. 8.6.2.1 When approved by the Range Officer, competitors at Level I matches may, without penalty, receive whatever coaching or assistance they request. Lee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted August 22, 2014 Share Posted August 22, 2014 Not exactly so cut and dried. The rules clearly state the person offering advice or coaching and the shooter may both be penalized. And there is a difference between moving at the beep and already having moved. If a shooter is creeping at the beep that can earn him a procedural. But if a shooter has already assumed an incorrect position the RO must not start him. So as I see it the peanut gallery can point out an incorrect position without penalty but they can not tell a shooter to stop creeping Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pjb45 Posted August 22, 2014 Share Posted August 22, 2014 (edited) At coaching penalty was issued at L10/Open Nationals in MT. It was the first time John A. ever heard it being done. The CRO was Wooden. It is and was a chicken s***t penalty. It got the T-Shirt thanks to Polle. Edited August 22, 2014 by pjb45 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ktm300 Posted August 22, 2014 Share Posted August 22, 2014 I have called creeping a couple of times. They were still, I already started to push the button and they went before the buzzer went off. If I can stop myself from letting the buzzer go of I just won't start them. If we get past 4 seconds or so I stop them and we start all over again. Funny 4 seconds is forever when waiting on someone to stop moving. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alma Posted August 22, 2014 Share Posted August 22, 2014 If I am ROing I generally just wait until the shooter stops moving and settles in before giving them the buzzer. Generally after two or three seconds they are either in the correct position or have fallen forward out of the shooting box. You have to love the lean... I don't always wait that long; just when it is obvious that someone is trying to jump the gun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nimitz Posted August 22, 2014 Author Share Posted August 22, 2014 The creeping rule says nothing about a competitor who returns to the correct start position prior to the start signal going off. I can not find anywhere where it talks about not being allowed to move from the required start position after a certain range command it given? Is no movement allowed only after the "are you ready" command? After the "standby command"? Anything up to the start signal? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nimitz Posted August 22, 2014 Author Share Posted August 22, 2014 In addition to the competitor who offered the coaching, it is my understanding that if a competition acts on the advice they can also receive a penalty, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nimitz Posted August 22, 2014 Author Share Posted August 22, 2014 .... "Hey, Joe! You missed that popper!". Joe stops, goes back and shoots it. Clearly he was acting on the person's advice ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vlad Posted August 22, 2014 Share Posted August 22, 2014 Or his plan was different, or he remembered it, or he just saw it being up. I try to not read minds, and give the benefit to the shooter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nimitz Posted August 22, 2014 Author Share Posted August 22, 2014 While that can certainly be true,I worded my example in a very specific way becuase it would be very obvious what was going on in my example ... I've seen more than once where a competitor clearly missed a target, there was no clever stage plan involved that no one else saw. These are known inexperienced shooters and the instant the advice is offered they stop what they were doing and execute the "suggestion". Very clear cause and effect. If I was in doubt I wouldn't call it but that's not the case here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nimitz Posted August 23, 2014 Author Share Posted August 23, 2014 I stand corrected ... I believe Vlad is correct that 8.3.4.1 covers the first question ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poppa Bear Posted August 23, 2014 Share Posted August 23, 2014 (edited) The creeping rule says nothing about a competitor who returns to the correct start position prior to the start signal going off. I can not find anywhere where it talks about not being allowed to move from the required start position after a certain range command it given? Is no movement allowed only after the "are you ready" command? After the "standby command"? Anything up to the start signal? Though it is not officially in the rules my take is no movement allowed after "Stand By" because that is the 1 to 4 second window for the start signal. If I see movement I will try to stop myself from hitting the start button, or if it is too late for that I will yell stop and restart the shooter. 8.3.4.1. 8.3.1 "Make Ready" the last sentence says: The Range Officer will not proceed with any further range commands until the competitor is still and is in the correct start position. This is somewhat vague because we see many shooters shuffle and adjust their positions after Make Ready,and after Are You Ready. We as RO's wait until we see no further movement before we issue the next command. So we wait until they are still before we say Are You Ready, we then wait until they are still before we say Stand By. We wait on pushing the start button until they are still. We will restart them if they move before we can stop ourselves from pushing the start button. Edited August 23, 2014 by Poppa Bear Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nimitz Posted August 23, 2014 Author Share Posted August 23, 2014 That all makes sense but the what happens when the shooter moves after the stand-by command? The rules don't specifically cover that ... the creeping rule covers a competitor who is moving his hands toward his gun or leaning in some direction WHEN the start signal goes off. I agree that if you give the Stand-by command and you see the shooter start to move you can call STOP to protect him from getting a creeping penalty & just restart him. During our level 1 RO class last weekend we discussed this situation at length and the instructor specifically said there would be no penalty if he returned to the start position prior to the start signal going off - I just didn't remember the rule reference he used ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted August 23, 2014 Share Posted August 23, 2014 During our level 1 RO class last weekend That explains a lot!! Just kidding you Nimitz. I wish everybody would become an RO. More importantly I wish those that do become RO's would actually run a shooter once in awhile but that's a different argument. Once a shooter has stopped moving, creeping, whatever before the beeper he is not violating any rules. I guess if the instructor wanted to cloud the issue he could say any of the rules that discuss assuming the start position could apply since that is what the shooter did after he stopped moving around. I personally don't look for rules to tell a shooter he did something correctly. Usually I am looking for rules because he did something wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alma Posted August 23, 2014 Share Posted August 23, 2014 As a RO and CRO I don't really find this to be a problem. I just let them fidget all they want and don't give them a beep until it think they have stopped. Plenty of people will try to get the drop on an RO but those that do are usually pretty easy to read. It they are already out of position I instruct them to get into the proper position again and give them AYR and SB again. I have had plenty try to take advantage but I haven't seen it so obtuse with it that I felt they deserved a procedural. The RO can absolutely control this situation as long as he or she is observant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skydiver Posted August 23, 2014 Share Posted August 23, 2014 A lot of competitors also like to watch the RO's to get a feel for their cadence. So if an RO doesn't vary the time between say "Standby" and giving the start signal, they can often anticipate the start signal and start moving before. It's even worse when the sun is behind the RO and the shooter... they can watch the shadow of the finger coming down on the newer timers. The older timers where you have to release the button get rid of the shadow watching. As I recall, some ROs here recommend setting the timer on random start so that they don't have to worry about varying their cadence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted August 23, 2014 Share Posted August 23, 2014 As I recall, some ROs here recommend setting the timer on random start so that they don't have to worry about varying their cadence. I wouldn't recommend that, as you lose control, and don't gain anything...... You can do a random 1-4 second start without using an automatic feature..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nimitz Posted August 23, 2014 Author Share Posted August 23, 2014 Yes, our instructor specifically warned against setting the timer on random for that very reason. Ok, the real reason I brought this up s becuase it's a certification exam question and several of us are debating what rule applies ... As those of you who are ROs know, to pass this open book exam you need to give the correct answer and cite the revelant rule .. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alma Posted August 23, 2014 Share Posted August 23, 2014 I usually count from 1 to 4 in my head and try to vary between shooters. That way I am still in control and can wait if a shooter starts to creep. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grapemeister Posted August 23, 2014 Share Posted August 23, 2014 I think rule 10.2.6 is one of those high discretionary penalties. I've restarted a couple of shooters that jumped the gun, so to speak, but have never given the penalty for creeping. I think having to restart is penalty enough for most shooters since their train of concentration has been broken or at least temporarily interrupted. I hope I never have to give such penalty under 10.2.6 but I plan on staying in this game for many years to come and I can imagine one day under the right circumstances where I may not have a choice but to give the penalty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alma Posted August 23, 2014 Share Posted August 23, 2014 Like if they do it again after you reset their position. Falling out of the start box a second time might be enough for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grapemeister Posted August 23, 2014 Share Posted August 23, 2014 Like if they do it again after you reset their position. Falling out of the start box a second time might be enough for me. Shoot, I think I would let the guy do it all he wants, and let him be embarrassed in front of his squad and everybody else watching. Of course, If it got ridiculous, like maybe 3 times, I'd ask the guy if we need to go to the next shooter, and let him compose himself before coming back to shoot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skydiver Posted August 23, 2014 Share Posted August 23, 2014 I remember a stage where the stage designer had specified positions for heels and hands against a kneeboard, but failed to state that the shooter had to be facing uprange (which seemed to be his intent). If the shooter was facing uprange, there was a path the shooter would naturally follow (assuming they were right handed). We gamers discovered that we could comply with the start position, but be facing downrange and shave off 3 seconds. It required very good balance at the start position, though. The stage designer kept us hanging for the longest time he legally could. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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