1911vm Posted August 11, 2014 Share Posted August 11, 2014 competition vs working/battle ar. I am not sure what the real difference is. Outside the barrel length and the trigger. Application should be the same. Reliability and accuracy. Or am I looking at it to simplistically? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryan 45 Posted August 11, 2014 Share Posted August 11, 2014 (edited) I believe you are looking at this correctly! A XXXXX rifle must be accurate, comfortable to shoot and carry, and above all else- reliable. I have seen competition rifles that do not meet these basic criteria, and they fare poor, just as they would if the rifle was intended for more social purposes. Generally the only difference is muzzle device. I am not a fan of breaking the trigger on a rifle with a comp if I'm not wearing ear pro. But, I've shot some ARs with flash hiders at 4 legged critters that weren't going to stand around and wait for me to get plugs in, and it's not too bad, unless it's inside a closed-in area. Edited August 11, 2014 by Bryan 45 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wgj3 Posted August 11, 2014 Share Posted August 11, 2014 I think that many competition rifles run closer to the edge of reliable function. Light triggers and hammer springs and hammers. Decreased gas volume. Lightened bolt carrier. Comp on the barrel. Hand guard configuration. All the high-speed, low-drag/recoil stuff that tends to be fairly popular in the sporting venues makes the difference Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alma Posted August 11, 2014 Share Posted August 11, 2014 The most recognizable difference I have seen is in the lightening of the bolt and other reciprocating parts as well as having an adjustable gas system. Since "working/battle" ARs would but a priority on reliability over soft shooting they tend to be overgassed to assure that the gun functions above all else. Most who tune gas systems have them set just far enough to lock the bolt back but nothing more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EkuJustice Posted August 11, 2014 Share Posted August 11, 2014 I think some of it depends on how one sets up the competition rifle. If it's one with light weight buffer carrier and adj set for a specific load than it is farther from a working gun which is usualy gonna have full weight carrier buffer and non adj gas and is ment to run any ammo you can put in it. My competition guns are setup the same as a working gun with the exception of the muzzle device and will feed any ammo put in it without issue including Tula wolf etc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkCO Posted August 11, 2014 Share Posted August 11, 2014 For me, both set-ups have to work. My match guns have comps and low mass carriers, but I won't run adjustable gas. My match loads are softer than full power and that accounts for a good portion of the "tuning" that others use the adjustable gas to tinker with. All of my ARs will run factory ammo 100%, and that is the way I want it. So I would be more in agreement with posts #2 and #5 for how I set mine up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alaskapopo Posted August 12, 2014 Share Posted August 12, 2014 competition vs working/battle ar. I am not sure what the real difference is. Outside the barrel length and the trigger. Application should be the same. Reliability and accuracy. Or am I looking at it to simplistically? For me the main difference is full mass carrier in a working AR, Flash light on a working AR and a sling. Also remove the comp and put a flash hider on or a sound suppressor. I like the same optic set ups on my work guns as my competition guns. Pat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apetrulis01 Posted August 12, 2014 Share Posted August 12, 2014 The difference between my working AR (LEO) and Competition AR is an follows: - Barrel Length: Working 16" and Competition 18" - Bolt: Working: I run a full mass bolt carrier group without an adjustable gas system / Competition: LMOS bolt and adjustable gas - I have never had my adjustable gas system change, but I don't want Mr. Murphy stepping in and prefer a little more gas for total reliability. - Trigger: Slightly heavier trigger on my working gun, both are single stage. - Optical Sights: Working: Aimpoint Comp ML4 with Troy flip up back up sights Competition: Leupold Prismatic w/o iron sights (Limited) - Compensator: Both guns have the Surefire MB556K muzzle brake Lower: All parts (bad lever, mag buttons, etc are the same on both) Lights: working gun has a TLR-1 LED were the competition gun has nothing. Basically the working gun kicks a little bit more because of the increase gas but I can run the working gun very fast. Adam Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daft Posted August 12, 2014 Share Posted August 12, 2014 Its like the old stereo argument where the cost of the refinements vs the rate of return starts to go way up in price, may I add reliability? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kurtm Posted August 12, 2014 Share Posted August 12, 2014 (edited) Play gun CTR-02...20" barrel iron sights....would happily use for real world stuff...after 2 barrels I trust it....however.... For real use, 22" barrel, real light bolt, iron sights, piston system, and steel magazines...oh yeah and a light and sling like my buddy Pat....but it isn't what you think! M14 baby, M14....because the 223,s are carbines and I prefer a real rifle! Edited August 12, 2014 by kurtm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1911vm Posted August 12, 2014 Author Share Posted August 12, 2014 I have a 18in 3 gun with a 1-4 optic blablabla. then i got 16in JP vtac rifle. the JP is almost as accurate splitting hairs. slightly sharper recoil but I actually like it. then I got a 14.5 noveske mid and i really like that. I plan to shoot a few 3gun this year and going to do that with the 14.5. will see how it goes. thanks for the input. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryan 45 Posted August 12, 2014 Share Posted August 12, 2014 Play gun CTR-02...20" barrel iron sights....would happily use for real world stuff...after 2 barrels I trust it....however.... For real use, 22" barrel, real light bolt, iron sights, piston system, and steel magazines...oh yeah and a light and sling like my buddy Pat....but it isn't what you think! M14 baby, M14....because the 223,s are carbines and I prefer a real rifle! Ha ha! Good point! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1911vm Posted August 12, 2014 Author Share Posted August 12, 2014 Play gun CTR-02...20" barrel iron sights....would happily use for real world stuff...after 2 barrels I trust it....however.... For real use, 22" barrel, real light bolt, iron sights, piston system, and steel magazines...oh yeah and a light and sling like my buddy Pat....but it isn't what you think! M14 baby, M14....because the 223,s are carbines and I prefer a real rifle! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1911vm Posted August 12, 2014 Author Share Posted August 12, 2014 This is changing the topic but I cannot disagree. I feel the same about my DSA FAL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dauntedfuture Posted August 12, 2014 Share Posted August 12, 2014 Last year I was running a 18" midlength DD barrel with CMC trigger, adj gas, JP Comp and Vortex razor 1-6 and LMOS. Given the choice I would have run the same rifle in Afghanistan with a FH or a suppressor. I would have put the standard operating system back in the gun, that's about it. From what I hear, the Trijicon VCOG was developed to meet the needs of the military to provide one optic to replace all the ACOGS and CCOs out there in the military. I'm not sure if that's 100% true but it makes sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alita Posted August 12, 2014 Share Posted August 12, 2014 competition vs working/battle ar. I am not sure what the real difference is. Outside the barrel length and the trigger. Application should be the same. Reliability and accuracy. Or am I looking at it to simplistically? Barrel length is mission dependant, SPR setups you're looking at 18+, standard patrol 16, VIP protection details 14.5 and under (lots of getting into and out of vehicles). Optics are again mission specific, SPR some kind of magnification, standard patrol anything. For competitions I used an Eotech, for a work AR I'd use an Aimpoint T1, smaller, tougher, less hanging off my gun to get caught up in, always on. But these are some of my choices based on what capabilities I want my rifle to have goverend by what I'm doing. Having the gun function in a fight/competition is of primary importance, but you have to get the gun to the fight and it has to be enough gun for the fight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
co-exprs Posted August 12, 2014 Share Posted August 12, 2014 Many thanks to those who use their rifles in harms way. I only use mine for competition. Honestly though... My 5yr old JP15 with LMOS and adjustable gas has been extremely reliable. I set up the 18" FDE JP15 I got last year with irons and a match trigger for a jack of all trades gun. I would have no second thoughts about running it when my life depended on it. In the end though I have to agree with Kurt. I'd probably prefer an 18" M1A. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steviesterno Posted August 12, 2014 Share Posted August 12, 2014 Due to some paring down, those are one in the same for me at the moment. 18" Jp build with Timney trigger, ubr stock, 15" Samson tube with a light rail and a trl 1. It's been reliable for thousands of rounds, and with the trijicon 1-4 I can run it like a red dot up close or zoom in for far. I miss the 10.5 aimpoint SBR set up I had, but stuff happens. My only concern running this one would be the noise, that comp will suck inside the house. But if I have to fire it here in the suburbs my hearing will be of secondary consideration Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P.E. Kelley Posted August 12, 2014 Share Posted August 12, 2014 I hope to never see battle but for a working gun and in particular a rifle then it has to be a M14...it is The self-loading rifle among carbines. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmiller Posted August 12, 2014 Share Posted August 12, 2014 No love for the AR-10? Would you choose the M1A out of habit, or are they a more reliable platform than the Ar-10? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobS761 Posted August 12, 2014 Share Posted August 12, 2014 I hope to never see battle but for a working gun and in particular a rifle then it has to be a M14...it is The self-loading rifle among carbines. I remember my dad telling me that in Vietnam, the units with M14's were badly overmatched compared to the M16 equiped paratrooper units,(this from a guy that started with Garrands and ended his career with M16's). I'm going to go with rate of fire and ammo carring capacity. Other than muzzle device, my AR would work fine as a semi auto working rifle, but could use a better barrel for competition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P.E. Kelley Posted August 12, 2014 Share Posted August 12, 2014 I hope to never see battle but for a working gun and in particular a rifle then it has to be a M14...it is The self-loading rifle among carbines. I remember my dad telling me that in Vietnam, the units with M14's were badly overmatched compared to the M16 equiped paratrooper units,(this from a guy that started with Garrands and ended his career with M16's). I'm going to go with rate of fire and ammo carring capacity. Other than muzzle device, my AR would work fine as a semi auto working rifle, but could use a better barrel for competition. I'll grant you the combat application...I was not speaking in that realm. I guess my opening was not clear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobS761 Posted August 12, 2014 Share Posted August 12, 2014 I have to add, I'm an M14 fan too. I loved shooting one in service rifle matches. But that rifle was an altogether different beast as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shaky Posted August 12, 2014 Share Posted August 12, 2014 (edited) Play Gun: 18" Hybrid contour 1:8 Barrel AAC Muzzle Brake Geissele 3GN Trigger JP Low Mass BCG Seekins adjustable gas block 15" Samson Rail 1-4 Burris XTR Scope Home Defense, Hunting, Everything else Gun: 14.7" M4 Contour 1:8 Barrel AAC Mini-4 Suppressor Geissele SSA-E Trigger Mil-Spec BCG non-adjustable gas block 13" Wilson Rail Aimpoint T-1 Red dot TLR-1 Light Magpul Sling So no, not the same for me. I have run my everyday gun in 3-Gun competitions and it is really fun! However I can go much faster with the lightened BCG and brake than I can with the standard BCG and suppressor. I usually only shoot factory out of the everyday gun. I load a 60gr VMAX for the competition gun that is a little more mild than factory. Hence the adjustable gas. -Shaky Edited August 12, 2014 by Shaky Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
landshark45 Posted August 13, 2014 Share Posted August 13, 2014 First on my list is weight. Working guns are meant to be carried often and for long periods of time between use. Competitive rifle and carbines can be any weight because we can retire them to racks after a heavy workout. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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