Can a swinger be shot at before being activated?

[NicVerAZ]

I shot a match today where two swingers on one stage were partially visible when not activated.

Some shooters decided to shoot them before they were activated, which was possible by gaming the stage, since one had to shoot under a partition to do so.

Some, including me, decided against it, as it was against the spirit of the stage.

There was a debate and, although I was on principle against what these shooters who shot them before activation did, I defended them, as I my RO knowledge of the rule does not tell me that anything is written against this.

Someone had brought the rule book and could not find anything against it.

Also nothing was specifically written in the Course Of Fire stating that these targets were to be engaged in a certain manner.

Was I right to agree their action was legitimate?

Edited August 3, 2014 by NicVerAZ

[Willz]

I'm no rules expert but if there is nothing specifically in the rule book against it and IF the Match Director or stage designer wanted them shot only after activation then the stage brief should have stated that.

Otherwise it's shoot'm as you see'm.

Edited August 3, 2014 by Willz

[JimmyZip]

Yeah if it is not on the written stage brief, then I believe that Willz is correct.

[basman]

2.1.8.5 Appearing scoring targets must be designed and constructed to be obscured to the competitor (during the course of fire) prior to activation.

2.1.8.5.1Level One matches are encouraged but not required to comply with this requirement. The Written Stage Briefing (WSB) may prohibit competitors from engaging certain targets which may be visible prior to activation until the operation of the activating mechanism has been initiated (see Rule 9.9.4)

9.9.4 Level I matches only - If the written stage briefing prohibits the engagement of certain targets prior to activation, the competitor will incur one procedural penalty per shot fired at such targets prior to oper- ating the activating mechanism, up to the maximum number of avail- able hits (see Rule 2.1.8.5.1).

Edited August 3, 2014 by basman

[JimmyZip]

So that is saying essentially that if you don't obscure at a local, you have got to specify it in the WSB. Or am I just reading into things here?

eta; pun intended.

Edited August 3, 2014 by JimmyZip

[AWLAZS]

2.2.3.3 Unless otherwise specified in the written stage briefing, all

such barriers, walls, vision barriers and snow fence barriers

will be considered to go from the ground to the height as

constructed.

Most likely they should have not shot under the wall.

[Poppa Bear]

If shot over or around a wall it is legal. Under is not unless WSB specifies it as a legal location.

[AWLAZS]

First post said under.

[Sandbagger123]

if shooting under the partition was a legal specified shooting area, i see no issue with it. chaulk it up to bad stage design or WSB.or maybe they even designed it that way. i have seen people shoot through barrels to get a activator target. of course they were declared soft cover before hand.

[GrumpyOne]

If shot over or around a wall it is legal. Under is not unless WSB specifies it as a legal location.

Edit....I was wrong....

Edited August 3, 2014 by GrumpyOne

[Sarge]

If shot over or around a wall it is legal. Under is not unless WSB specifies it as a legal location.

Edit....I was wrong....

Don't we all wish EVERYBODY in this game could say those three simple words??

[NicVerAZ]

To make it clear: some of those targets were shot from under the partitions, others not. One could see the target sticking out from under.

Example: one was partially concealed by two stacks of barrels. Between the barrels, in the gap, a few no shoots had been stapled together to attempt to hide the target, but it still was visible under the no shoots, prior to activation.

Would it be legal to shoot the part of the target which was not concealed by the no shoot before it was activated? No "shooting under the wall" consideration.

[Poppa Bear]

Yes it would be legal.

Rule 2.2.3.3 States: Unless otherwise specified in the written stage briefing, all such barriers, walls, vision barriers and snow fence barriers will be considered to go from the ground to the height as constructed.

This means that ANYTHING constructed to hide a target exists from the ground to the height constructed.No Shoots are NOT considered vision barriers. They are targets. So any portion of a target that is visible around a barrier, over the barrier, or over/around/under a NS or HC target is legal to shoot.

[Skydiver]

As much as it is rubbing the stage designer's (or construction crew's) nose in it, if the WSB at a level I match failed to indicate that the target cannot be shot prior to activation, then take full advantage of their error. It makes for better stage designs/construction. I've been on both ends where people found holes in my stage design, and I've found them in others. For the former, I can only smile and think to myself, pay more attention. For the latter, I try to warn the staff ahead of time before the match starts.

[Sarge]

As much as it is rubbing the stage designer's (or construction crew's) nose in it, if the WSB at a level I match failed to indicate that the target cannot be shot prior to activation, then take full advantage of their error. It makes for better stage designs/construction. I've been on both ends where people found holes in my stage design, and I've found them in others. For the former, I can only smile and think to myself, pay more attention. For the latter, I try to warn the staff ahead of time before the match starts.

For me this is part of the fun. From both sides. I try to find all the little holes in stages when I set them up just like I do when I shoot other stages.

[High Lord Gomer]

You guys are....are....(gasp) GAMERS!

[ktm300]

Last

You guys are....are....(gasp) GAMERS!

Yep, last time I looked this is a game and part of the rules are about it being freestyle so......

[High Lord Gomer]

I frequently tell people, "Look, we're keeping score and noone is shooting back...it's a GAME!"

[Nik Habicht]

As much as it is rubbing the stage designer's (or construction crew's) nose in it, if the WSB at a level I match failed to indicate that the target cannot be shot prior to activation, then take full advantage of their error. It makes for better stage designs/construction. I've been on both ends where people found holes in my stage design, and I've found them in others. For the former, I can only smile and think to myself, pay more attention. For the latter, I try to warn the staff ahead of time before the match starts.

I like options -- so I've sometimes set swingers that were partially obscured with no shoots -- so you might be able to engage it as a static headshot target from 15-20 yards out, or as a swinging, fully open target from 7-10 yards.....

[remoandiris]

Shot a L1 once with a double swingers activated by a popper. RM was on my squad. WSB said we couldn't shoot the swinger until it activated. RM said to the squad, and only us, that meant the swinger had to start moving, not that the targets could be shot once the popper was hit. Guess what the other squads did? Shot the popper and then blazed on the swinger. They didn't wait for it to move.

BS stage that could have been fixed with 2 barrels.

[Willz]

A recent match I shot had a rope line from left to right across the entire pistol bay.

Targets left, right and center. Left and right had targets at the rope and others at the back of the bay obscured by barrels forcing you to go far left and far right to engage them.

The two targets at the rope line were to be shot with 4 rounds each weak hand only from the start box which was centered on the rope.line. Then you could proceed and engage the others targets at will.

Initially the close targets were only shot from the box and not re-engaged but someone realized there was nothing stated in the stage brief prohibiting you from re-engaging the close targets as you went to each side of the rope line.

There were a couple of pissed off shooters who did not re-engage and took penalties for misses or poor shots. They shot it how it was intended but NOT the way it was written in the stage brief.

Once the first guy re-engaged everyone else did the same.

The addition of the word "only" in the brief saying where you could shoot those two close targets from would have prevented re-engaging them.

Gamers gonna game!

Edited August 5, 2014 by Willz

[Sandbagger123]

Shot a L1 once with a double swingers activated by a popper. RM was on my squad. WSB said we couldn't shoot the swinger until it activated. RM said to the squad, and only us, that meant the swinger had to start moving, not that the targets could be shot once the popper was hit. Guess what the other squads did? Shot the popper and then blazed on the swinger. They didn't wait for it to move.

BS stage that could have been fixed with 2 barrels.

had the same thing with a texas star that was weighted to spin. The open guys could shoot the activator and shoot 2 or 3 plates before it started to spin. Ask the MD and he said it was considered activated as soon as it is engaged.

[Skydiver]

A recent match I shot had a rope line from left to right across the entire pistol bay.

Targets left, right and center. Left and right had targets at the rope and others at the back of the bay obscured by barrels forcing you to go far left and far right to engage them.

The two targets at the rope line were to be shot with 4 rounds each weak hand only from the start box which was centered on the rope.line. Then you could proceed and engage the others targets at will.

Initially the close targets were only shot from the box and not re-engaged but someone realized there was nothing stated in the stage brief prohibiting you from re-engaging the close targets as you went to each side of the rope line.

There were a couple of pissed off shooters who did not re-engage and took penalties for misses or poor shots. They shot it how it was intended but NOT the way it was written in the stage brief.

Once the first guy re-engaged everyone else did the same.

The addition of the word "only" in the brief saying where you could shoot those two close targets from would have prevented re-engaging them.

Gamers gonna game!

I don't see how that stage could be a legal USPSA course of fire. The fact that you had 3 shooting locations (start box, far left, far right) automatically pushes the COF into the Medium COF. If it required more than 20 rounds, then it would have been a Long COF. (1.2.1.2 and 1.2.1.3) Given that it was at least a Medium COF: then:

1.1.5.4 Medium or Long courses of fire may stipulate the use of either strong or weak hand, provided that only one hand, either strong or weak, is specified for no more than the last 6 shots required.

Requiring weak hand only at the beginning of the COF would have made the stage illegal.

Even the Level I exemption doesn't readily give a way to save the COF:

1.1.5.1 Level I matches may use shooting boxes, specify where or when specific target arrays may be engaged and specify mandatory reloads in short and medium courses only. Long courses are exclusively governed by 1.1.5.

because the exemption only allows for where or when, but not stance.

Assuming that it is a Medium COF, you could save the COF by stating that the start position is at the start box, but the close targets in front of the start box can only be engaged last with 4 rounds each weak hand only -- assuming you want to use the Level I exemption.

Personally, I would have set things up by having a guillotine style window with a pull cord that forces the shooter to use one hand to pull on the cord to raise the vision barrier. Let the shooter decide to shoot it one handed, or if the wanted to take the extra time to raise the guillotine and then stick in the their head to keep it from coming down while they shoot two handed.

[Willz]

Like I said I'm no rules expert.

Just an example of how in stage design you must be very specific and even then someone will find a flaw and exploit it

Edited August 5, 2014 by Willz

[Fuelie777]

If you can see the target you can engage it. But if it is behind a wall and there is no direction that under the wall is an opening, then 2.2.3.3 is in place. I believe from what was described, the shooters engaged the targets illegally. Now what is the penalty for that. Need to look that one up.