Blueridge Posted August 19, 2014 Share Posted August 19, 2014 I like the idea of bringing ammunition consumption into the equation. Being accurate, having economy of motion (speed), and conservation of ammunition are all important. What you propose as far as ammunition allowance is different than simply having some stages being limited Vickers type. Each stage everyone will have the same limit (with possible exception of race guns) of ammunition, and then it comes down to using what you have as best you can. I can imagine several possible stages in a match where a number of competitors might run out of ammunition if they don't make their rounds count. I can imagine fewer magazines or moon clips containing ammunition being casually dropped by competitors when the shots required is close to the maximum amount of ammunition you have available. I am not talking about the designers doing this on purpose, but competitors being used to having many more magazines, moon clips, etc.. than they likely need and then realizing that they have to plan differently due to necessary ammunition management because of limitations on how much they can have available on a stage. Just a thought. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blueridge Posted August 19, 2014 Share Posted August 19, 2014 What is the reason for keeping with the 10 round limits in your to factory divisions, stock and modified. I think it would be nice to have a division that allows the use of our hi-cap mags for carry practice. I know I don't load my carry gun with only 10 in the mag and one in the pipe!!!! I think that is where the lack is for both IDPA and USPSA!!!!! I like your concept and look forward to giving it a go!! I don't know the actual answer to your above question, but I do have a comment about it. In competition I primarily compete with a revolver, because it forces me to make every shot count. This mindset carries over to when I am using an auto in competition or carrying for defensive purposes. Some people seem to depend on the amount of ammunition to make up for any lack they may have in marksmanship. I believe that in competition and in defensive situations you want to be the most effective you can with the least amount of ammunition used possible. It is the difference in mindset between putting more than minimum needed on a competition target because you can, and putting more than the minimum on the same targets because you have to. I am in no way questioning your capabilities, because I don't know you. I just see some competitors "let loose" (and I know that can be fun) instead of simply making the necessary shots count. Competition can, and I believe does, improve gun handling skills under pressure of time. Knowing and being confident in your skills allows you to focus on other issues that you might face. I apologize for getting off thread....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aglifter Posted August 19, 2014 Share Posted August 19, 2014 I think, rather than limiting mag capacity or number of reloads, limit how many rounds you can have on you? At least for me, I carry 3 reloads if I carry a SS but two if I carry Tupperware - it's about balancing it on my belt. I know I have mentioned this before - and it would take some significant price breaks from the manufacturer, but using 3D targets with old T-Shirts over them, and scoring off the vital zone inserts would be an excellent idea - maybe on your classifier stages, to keep the cost down? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premieractionshooting Posted August 19, 2014 Share Posted August 19, 2014 (edited) The 10 round loading was actually a difficult and complicated decision. The main reason was that one of the goals of this sport was to incorporate ammo management into a stage. If the factory divisions were allowed to load up to 17, there wouldn't be a lot of ammo management on a 23 round stage. Increasing round counts would require 1911s to carry more than 2 extra mags, and carrying more than 2 extra mags isn't realistic for most folks for EDC. Another contributing factor was the fact that this sport will be shot in states with magazine restrictions. If there is sufficient pushback at the pilot matches on magazine loading, we will evaluate FMP going up to 17. ETA: Blueridge summed up the thought process that went into the magazine loading decision perfectly. Edited August 19, 2014 by Premieractionshooting Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premieractionshooting Posted August 19, 2014 Share Posted August 19, 2014 Aglifter, I agree that 3d targets would be ideal. It is, however, definitely cost prohibitive, especially for a startup company. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ajjacks916 Posted August 20, 2014 Share Posted August 20, 2014 There is another pilot match scheduled. It will be held at Impact Zone on September 6. The match is being hosted by West Houston Shooters. Signups will be posted at WWW.whidpa.com. Come on out and give the new sport a try. This is instead of their regular scheduled monthly match?? 1st Saturday of the month Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
solaritx Posted August 20, 2014 Share Posted August 20, 2014 AJ:........yes WHIDPA first of the month match in Sept will be PASS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom C Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 We talked about the upcoming PASS match at Impact Zone. Definitely a positive feeling in the air. Hope like heck we don't get "hammered" with more shooters than can be handled. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Watson Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 AJ:........yes WHIDPA first of the month match in Sept will be PASS Ah, yes, WHIDPA, home base for IDSA a few years back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zhunter Posted August 22, 2014 Share Posted August 22, 2014 IDPA Power Factor? What is it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom C Posted August 22, 2014 Share Posted August 22, 2014 IDPA Power Factor? What is it? From the IDPA rulebook that I have downloaded: SSP - 125 ESP - 125 CDP - 165 ESR - 165 SSR - 105 Bullet weight (in grains) x Bullet velocity (fps) / 1000. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GMB Posted August 22, 2014 Share Posted August 22, 2014 I have put extra rounds on target for various reasons like, I knew it was a bad shot, I needed to dump rounds to force the reload as it was more beneficial for me etc etc. These sports are games!!!!!!! They are a great way to improve gun handling skills and the like. Anyone who uses these sports as defensive training is a moron. Go find a reputable trainer and get your tactical/defensive training from a professional. I highly recommend Mike Pannone!!!!!!!! Cheers. And as to my ability I can hold my own and then sum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blueridge Posted August 22, 2014 Share Posted August 22, 2014 I have put extra rounds on target for various reasons like, I knew it was a bad shot, I needed to dump rounds to force the reload as it was more beneficial for me etc etc. These sports are games!!!!!!! They are a great way to improve gun handling skills and the like. Anyone who uses these sports as defensive training is a moron. Go find a reputable trainer and get your tactical/defensive training from a professional. I highly recommend Mike Pannone!!!!!!!! Cheers. And as to my ability I can hold my own and then sum. You are correct shooting sports are games. Limiting the number of rounds that a competitor can use does not change that. the ability to put extra rounds on targets will still be there, but the competitor would also be aware that only so many rounds above the maximum will be available. if the stage required 18 rounds to complete minimum, and you have 30 rounds, then you know that you have a leeway of 12 rounds. Still a game, just another aspect beyond accuracy and speed to keep in mind. You would be using the ammunition available to you however you wish, but if you run out of ammunition before you engage successfully all of the targets no one is responsible but you. Makes stage planning a little more challenging I would think, for various reasons. I don't shoot USPSA, IDPA, and other shooting sports for the purpose of defensive training. I solely compete for the purpose of improving my gun handling skills. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GMB Posted August 22, 2014 Share Posted August 22, 2014 That's good to hear. That comment was a general statement for the masses!!!! I can only hope to continue to improve!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
v1911 Posted August 22, 2014 Share Posted August 22, 2014 Reasons for IDPA: Fun to shot stages Get better aquainted with my pistol Hang out with the guys/gals Get away from the wife and kids Because I don't want to reload enough to play in USPSA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GMB Posted August 22, 2014 Share Posted August 22, 2014 I shoot IDPA for an ego boost!!!!! LOL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaxshooter Posted August 22, 2014 Share Posted August 22, 2014 Sounds like an interesting match. You have to think about ammo consumption and accuracy seems more important that USPSA. I also like the idea of only two spare magazines. Hope we can generate some interest in our area. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deanq Posted August 23, 2014 Share Posted August 23, 2014 The 10 round loading was actually a difficult and complicated decision. The main reason was that one of the goals of this sport was to incorporate ammo management into a stage. If the factory divisions were allowed to load up to 17, there wouldn't be a lot of ammo management on a 23 round stage. Increasing round counts would require 1911s to carry more than 2 extra mags, and carrying more than 2 extra mags isn't realistic for most folks for EDC. Another contributing factor was the fact that this sport will be shot in states with magazine restrictions. If there is sufficient pushback at the pilot matches on magazine loading, we will evaluate FMP going up to 17. ETA: Blueridge summed up the thought process that went into the magazine loading decision perfectly. This always kills me Please drop the "realistic EDC". This is just another game. The majority of the country does NOT have 10 round mag limits. If you want a down loaded mag, state it in the stage description. Do you really want another game with "cover garments"? Scoring; if you have -1, and -2 zones, why make them .5? Think how easy scoring could be without a calculator. if your interested in favoring accuracy, just make it time + penalties. JMO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sidewinder6 Posted August 24, 2014 Share Posted August 24, 2014 (edited) This might be a wake up call to the governing bodies of IDPA and USPSA. There are enough people pushing back against both organizations now that this is making room for a new sport. These wont be new shooters. They will be shooters from both sports who migrate. Edited August 24, 2014 by Sidewinder6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premieractionshooting Posted August 24, 2014 Share Posted August 24, 2014 The 10 round loading was actually a difficult and complicated decision. The main reason was that one of the goals of this sport was to incorporate ammo management into a stage. If the factory divisions were allowed to load up to 17, there wouldn't be a lot of ammo management on a 23 round stage. Increasing round counts would require 1911s to carry more than 2 extra mags, and carrying more than 2 extra mags isn't realistic for most folks for EDC. Another contributing factor was the fact that this sport will be shot in states with magazine restrictions. If there is sufficient pushback at the pilot matches on magazine loading, we will evaluate FMP going up to 17. ETA: Blueridge summed up the thought process that went into the magazine loading decision perfectly. This always kills me Please drop the "realistic EDC". This is just another game. The majority of the country does NOT have 10 round mag limits. If you want a down loaded mag, state it in the stage description. Do you really want another game with "cover garments"? Scoring; if you have -1, and -2 zones, why make them .5? Think how easy scoring could be without a calculator. if your interested in favoring accuracy, just make it time + penalties. JMO Dean, The reality is that there are two types of shooters who play the current games. There are those who really get into the competition side. They (we) don't really care about making the game realistic, or to train tactics, we just want a sport thats fun and challenging. Most of the shooters who are participating in sanctioned matches fall into this category. I am in this category now, but I entered the shooting sports as someone in the other category. The other type of shooter is the person who just wants to improve their gun handling skills and get better at shooting for defensive carry reasons. They don't care about trophies or ranking, they just want a way to practice skills that can't normally be practiced at their range. Most new shooters who start shooting the action sports are in this category when they first enter. Some really get into the competitive aspect and move to the other group (like I did), and some stick around just to continue to hone defensive skills. In order for a new sport to be successful, we are going to have to cater to both groups of shooters. For each rule, we evaluated whether it would be a satisfier, a tolerable, or a dissastisfier for each type of shooter and tried to strike the best balance. As someone who enjoys the sports as a game, I too was a little concerned about the loading restrictions and limited mags when I wrote the rules. Once we started hosting matches and it became clear that those restrictions really led to a sport where you have to think your way through the stage and plan out your reloads more, it added a whole new aspect to the game for the "gamer" in me. Cover garments have been a "tolerable" for competitive shooters for a long time. For those who are looking for a way to practice defensive skills, having equipment that is concealable is an important aspect. Requiring a concealment garment for some stages is still a good way to demonstrate that pistols that are suited for defensive carry are being used. Summer in the South is a different story. Concealment garments are waived for hot weather. We understand it's a game for many, concessions made to keep defensive aspects in the game can be an annoyance for some competitors. For those who are really turned off by concessions made to accomodate defensive shooters, we added the race divisions which do not have mag loading limits and concealment garments are not used. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zhunter Posted August 24, 2014 Share Posted August 24, 2014 IF I shoot this, it will most likely be with a Production Optics gun, so some kind of race division. But there will be other times I'll shoot production gear, or would WANT to shoot production gear. But you lose me at "cover garment", that is NOT gonna happen. If some dude wants to practice his defensive skills go right ahead, wear your fishing vest, but it's not gonna be as fast as my draw from uncovered kydex. Cover garment? Really? Say it ain't so! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premieractionshooting Posted August 24, 2014 Share Posted August 24, 2014 I stated the reason that we have added concealment garments to the new rules and still get pushback, not just here but other places as well. I hear you, and will take it to the shooters. We will add specific questions about cover garments to the pilot match feedback questionnaires, if it looks like the presense of cover garments will be considered a negative overall, they will be removed from the rules before the website rollout. On this issue, and any other issues, what the shooters want is what we intend to deliver. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GmanCdp Posted August 24, 2014 Share Posted August 24, 2014 It's a game and it's all about the mindset of the shooter.. I have seen guys shoot USPSA with cover garments .. Each to their own way of shooting ... I hope this takes off... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick88 Posted August 24, 2014 Share Posted August 24, 2014 I would most likely shoot this kind of a match if it comes to my area, but if I have to wear a vest its not going to happen... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premieractionshooting Posted August 24, 2014 Share Posted August 24, 2014 Thanks for the support gman. I hope it takes off too! For those who are interested, here is the target that is being produced. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now