Precicion Action Shooting? Anyone heard of this?

[SWHlctx]

One of the ranges where I shoot indoor IDPA is going to host a Precision Action Shooting match next week. At least that is what I understood the name of the match (group?) is. I've never heard of the it, but it is supposed to be some kind of blend of IDPA and USPSA. Stages are similar to USPSA, but cover is required on 50% of the stages.

I can't find anything about it on the internet (and we know if it's not on the internet it doesn't really exist) or anywhere else.

Does anyone know anyting about this or know anything about it?

SWH

Edited August 2, 2014 by SWHlctx

[SWHlctx]

My bad. Guess I need new batteries in my hearing aid. It's Premier Action Shooting Sports (PASS), not Precision. Still don't know much about it, but I'm going to give it a try.

SWH

[Jim Watson]

I can't find anything about it under that name, either.

But give it a try. I shoot a couple of outlaw events - one coming up this afternoon, in fact - and they haven't affected my approach to regulation IDPA.

[SWHlctx]

I can't find anything about it under that name, either.

But give it a try. I shoot a couple of outlaw events - one coming up this afternoon, in fact - and they haven't affected my approach to regulation IDPA.

Not much info out there. I did find out a little and it sounds OK.

1. IDPA targets - the 3 zone becomes a 2 zone.

2. No FTNs. Can be called for shooting No Hit targets.

3. 50% of the stages call have concealed cover requirement.

4. Stages have fault lines, no cover calls, but you can be called for stepping over line.

5. Loaded the same as IDPA (division capacity) to start and can reload anywhere, any time (this one may win me over).

SWH

[Jim Watson]

Sounds ok.

The rules du jour I found yesterday were:

1. IDPA targets, .5 sec scoring, sequence and priority order of engagement.

2. Fault lines.

3. Long CoFs, one 20 two 24 round.

4. Scoring differences - foot faults and HoNT penalized per shot instead of per occurrence.

5. No concealment garments.

[JohnRodriguez]

kind of like the old single stack society scoring system. uses the Enos hit factor scoring

[Premieractionshooting]

Hey guys, I'm the founder and president of Premier Action Shooting Sports LLC. We are in our early stages right now. The website is in development and we have hosted two test matches so far with overwhelmingly positive feedback. The rulebook is written and copyrighted. We are making "tweaks" to the rules as we get feedback from the test matches; we want to build a sport that shooters enjoy and feedback is extremely important to us. We will continue to host test matches all the way up to the final release of the rule book when the website is launched. We will be keeping people posted about upcoming test matches and updates on the rollout through our Facebook page. [shameless plug] Go "like" the Premier Action Shooting Sports LLC Facebook page to stay updated on all the latest as this sport is rolled out [/shameless plug]

Before anyone asks about BUG matches; We are developing a format for BUGs, but will not be rolling it out with our initial roll out. We just aren't ready yet and want to work the bugs (no pun intended) out of our "regular" divisions first. A little teaser on the direction we plan on going with BUGs, they will probably fall into a "deep concealment" division where IWB holsters are required and stuff like that.

Most of the information in the posts above is correct and you have the general gist of the new sport. A few clarifications from what has been stated above:

• We have developed our own target and the die is being built right now so we can produce the targets. The best way to describe the new target is take a USPSA target and slide the "A" zone up until it shares a border with the head. Those two areas will be called NPH (no penalty head) and NPT (no penalty torso). A +1 area will surround the sides and bottom of the NPT that is marked +1, this area will be scored as one accuracy penalty (AP), the outer scoring area will be marked +2 and scored 2 AP. Misses score 5 AP. Each AP adds .5 seconds to the raw time.
• Fault lines will often be adjacent to barricades and force the use of cover. For outdoor matches with a raised faut line (1.5"), shots taken while touching outside of the fault lines will incur a penalty. For indoor matches or matches shot on a surface where raised fault lines are not feasible, tape or chalk may be used to mark fault lines. For non-raised fault lines, the shooter does not automatically incur a penalty for shooting while touching outside of a fault line. The SO must yell "fault" and only shots taken after the warning will be penalized. We are considering changing from penalizing for each shot fired to each target engaged since being penalized for each shot fired is pretty darn steep!
• There are times the shooter may have one of their feet outside of the fault lines while engaging blind transition targets. This one is a little tough to explain without this being a long(er) post.
• Max required shots on a scenario based stage is 23. For skills testing stages it's 18.
• Reload whenever/however, but you only have 2 extra mags so think it through! (this has made the stages so far definitely more of a thinking game than I have previously shot)
• As pointed out, concealment is required on at least 50% of stages. With the growing popularity of OC, we thought "why not practice both OC and CC?". Exception: there are race pistol and race revolver divisions, no sense making those folks pretend they are training for defensive purposes, no concealment required on any stages.
• Texas Star and Polish Plate Rack are allowed on skills testing stages.

There is a bunch more that I could bore you to tears with, the rule book is 56 pages, but I'll just lurk a while and answer any questions any of you might have.

Edited for typos: I kin speel reel gud

Edited August 15, 2014 by Premieractionshooting

[Premieractionshooting]

Wanted to add one other thing. This new sport is not trying to thumb it's nose at either USPSA or IDPA. They both are great sports and definitely have their place. We just believe that the two sports are far enough apart that there is definitely room for another sport to fit in between them. I will not bash either of the sports and will even help to promote ALL shooting sports, including the ones that I'm supposedly competing with.

[Jim Watson]

Scoring seems speed oriented. The two outlaw matches I have been to have higher accuracy penalties, not lower.

Raised fault lines good. I understand the trend to fault lines but I hate having to look for a stripe instead of a target.

Is there a capacity limitation? Power factoring?

Rules to be published anytime soon?

I think the second post is disingenuous. PASS sounds similar enough to USPSA, IPSC, and IDPA to be drawing from the same pool of shooters. I see nothing that will bring in new competitors that would not be equally likely to spend their time and money with one of the existing outfits.

[gwashorn]

I have shot both of the test matches in the past two weeks. It was a blast, easy to learn and manage the rules, lots of shooting but you do have to think ahead and manage your ammo and position on the stage etc. So to me it is really well worth the time to try this out as it is rolled out. I saw lots of smiles at the first two matches and the overall acceptance was really good.

As mentioned by the founder of the sport, it is a blend in between both IDPA and USPSA. It is a lot of fun allowing for more thinking on the shooters part yet setting up good fundamentals. Plus all sports can only go so far to mimic the real world but this one does a good job of it as well. I got a chance to read the rule book and it is well written and very easy to read and understand the rules, apply them and to use. Heck, I'm an AGGIE and I even understood them and I can't type and spell any better than he does.

As to the scoring comment and running speed, stage design limits that if designed well. For example there are no limits on the number of Non Threats. So as in the real world at a store, you can have all kinds of scenarios that limits your ability to move quickly and have to keep accuracy in play. It does require a bit more thinking on the shooters part. As noted, he is still running test matches and he is very interested in ALL comments and regardless if positive or negative. His goal is to meet the shooters needs. So give it try when available and let him know. It is just starting up and he is really trying to get people involved to help make it better for what they want. And did I mention it was a lot of fun too?

Edited August 15, 2014 by gwashorn

[Premieractionshooting]

Scoring seems speed oriented. The two outlaw matches I have been to have higher accuracy penalties, not lower.

Raised fault lines good. I understand the trend to fault lines but I hate having to look for a stripe instead of a target.

Is there a capacity limitation? Power factoring?

Rules to be published anytime soon?

I think the second post is disingenuous. PASS sounds similar enough to USPSA, IPSC, and IDPA to be drawing from the same pool of shooters. I see nothing that will bring in new competitors that would not be equally likely to spend their time and money with one of the existing outfits.

On the scoring, for people I have shared the rules with that have not shot a PASS match yet, the ones with an IDPA background worry that accuracy is not emphasized enough. Folks with a USPSA background worry that the scoring will stifle speed too much. I expected this, and see it as proof that I have hit the middle ground. On the test matches that we have run, we have had shooters who shoot IDPA as their primary sport and shooters that shoot USPSA as their primary sport. Both backgrounds have enjoyed the sport and didn't feel that the scoring was overly permissive or punative.

ETA: The no limit on no-shoots has offset some of the looser scoring. Now there are targets where it's OK to "blaze" and more targets where no-shoots come into the play.

Fault lines, we agree. Would love to see a way to make raised fault lines work indoors or on rocky surfaced ranges.

Capacity limitations: The two factory divisions (stock and modified) have a mag capacity of 10. Large Bore Pistol (.40 and up) has a mag capacity of 8 to make it fair for 1911's. Race divisions: load 'em up.

Power factors: similar to IDPA

Rules: I wish I could mass distribute now, but want to make sure we are rolling out rules without glaring holes in them. They will be released when the website launches in about 6-8 weeks. The rules have been shared with about 100 people and we are taking input and making quite a few small adjustments based on feedback. Rules de jure, as was stated earlier, are being made available to those who are shooting the pilot matches as well as the officers on several local clubs.

After re-reading my second post, I can see where it seemed disingenuous especially coming from someone who you don't know and the statements can seem self serving.

It is true that we will be targeting the same pool of shooters, but our marketing will focus on bringing new shooters into the shooting sports. This sport was started with the recognition that many local clubs are hosting "hybrid" matches and I have heard on many occasions that "someone should start a hybrid sport". Well, we did that. If a club only hosts one type of match all the time, (IDPA, USPSA, or PASS) then the sport can get stale for the members. I have encouraged and will continue to encourage clubs to affiliate with more than one of the shooting sports. For many who enjoy IDPA or USPSA, the jump to the other sport is a pretty big jump. PASS gives clubs an opportunity to host an additional sport along with their intial sport that hopefully retains some of the aspects of their original sport that shooters have enjoyed.

I can understand skepticism regarding my respect for the other sports. Time will show whether I'm being disenginous when I say that I do still respect and will support the other sports. I would rather see us expand the shooter pool than compete over the existing one. I still design/build stages and SO for local matches from one of the other sports. And I will continue to participate as a shooter in both of the other sports. I am reaching out in a more tangable way to the other sports but can't really give specifics on that here just in case things fall through on that support.

Edited August 15, 2014 by Premieractionshooting

[alma]

It's not perfect but you should try using window weather stripping on the bottom of your shooting boxes for indoor ranges.

That is what I use for my shooting boxes in the unfinished portion of my basement and it works well.

Edited August 15, 2014 by alma

[Jim Watson]

All I can say is good luck and when you get into my area, I will try it out.

[SWHlctx]

Just a quick update, I got to shoot one of the test matches last week and have to say it was both challanging and fun to shoot.

It took a couple of stages to get out of the "IDPA" mode (using cover, what specific order to shoot, etc.). I'm not a real experinced shooter so a lot of my IDPA "stage planning" is basically to watch a better shooter and just do whatever he/she did. With the PASS stages I had to actually think about what I was doing

Regarding some of the comments about it being a "speed" sport, since it was a "test" match I tried shooting one stage in the "run and gun" mode just for fun. Strangely enough my score sucked. Turns out once again good old accuarcy raised its ugly head. I am by no means an expert shooter and I'm sure a more advanced shooter could "run and gun" with much better results, but the stages really are designed to blend both accuracy and speed.

Most of the comments I heard while at the match were very positive and I think everyone enjoyed it. The one comment I heard the most was about the reloading anywhere you want to and no flat footed reload stuff. Everyone I spoke to liked that one.

One other observasion, there were some younger folks at the match that don't have a lot of experience in either IDPA or USPSA that were more comfortable. One guy commented how much easier it was for him without all the confusing rules. I knew how he felt because when I started IDPA I was more concerned with "goofing up" on the rules than my actual shooting.

SWH

[MHicks]

I realize that the large bore shooters will be competing against each other, but 23 round stages with 25 rounds available is cutting it pretty close compared to those in divisions with 31 rounds. Mark

[Premieractionshooting]

Yes, it is. We are considering putting a percentage cap on 23 round stages so that LBP shooters won't feel like the whole match is limited vickers for them. Most stages so far have been in the 18-22 range.

[DreGarciaTAT2]

Wanted to add one other thing. This new sport is not trying to thumb it's nose at either USPSA or IDPA. They both are great sports and definitely have their place. We just believe that the two sports are far enough apart that there is definitely room for another sport to fit in between them. I will not bash either of the sports and will even help to promote ALL shooting sports, including the ones that I'm supposedly competing with.

Good for you guys! I feel another league won't hurt anyone... And you'll see the same people complaining about the leagues and also defending them... I'd be interested to try something in between. How are classifications going to be done?

[Premieractionshooting]

Classifiers: There are currently 12 classifier stages set up. We will be running some tests with a group of masters to establish patimes for the classifier stages. When a club hosts a classifier, the will pick any 6 stages that they want and run a classifier. When a shooter shoots a classifier and shoots a master time, they will get 5 points for that stage, if they shoot within the range for expert they will get 4 points, etc.. After all 6 stages are shot, the points are totaled. It takes a classifier total of 30 to make master. A classifier total of 24-29 for expert, and on they go. We will have Novice, Marksman, Sharpshooter, Expert, Master, and Elite Master. Clubs will be required to host at least one classifier per year. Classifications are valid for one year without a match extension (see below for match extension)

Match bumps: Similar to IDPA, if a shooter finishes 1st out of 10 or more in their class, 2nd out of 20 or more, 3rd out of 30 or more, the shooter will be considered for a bump. In order to be bumped, the shooter must have shot well enough to have finished in the top half of the class they are being bumped to. In other words, the competitor will have shown that they not only are beating their current class, they are shooting at a competitive level in the class above them.

Match extension: If a shooter shoots a sanctioned match in which there was "bump elegibility" (10 or more in the shooter's class) and they do not get a bump, the shooter's current classification is valid for one year from the date of the match without needing to shoot another classifier.

[alma]

Sounds like you have a good Classifier system thought out. Having classifiers reflect actual major match conditions has always been an issue with USPSA and IDPA classifiers.

As an alternative out of right field you maybe you could consider spreading out your classifier stages over the year and having the same standard Classifier stage of the month. An identical Classifier shot as a single stage at each club for a particular given month.

You could then run totals for that stage across all shooters in the sport each month and base your classification on those results.

This would also allow you to frequently introduce new classifiers into the system that would act as the new national Classifier of these month.

[Premieractionshooting]

Actually, to expand the database, we were planning on allowing clubs to submit classifier stages. If they meet the classifier requirements, they will be sent out to several clubs to run in their matches to establish par times.

[Blueridge]

Premieractionshooting,

How many spare speedloaders/moonclips will revolver competitors be allowed to have available for a stage? I am guessing 4 based on 23max stage required shots.

Edited August 18, 2014 by Blueridge

[Premieractionshooting]

Premieractionshooting,

How many spare speedloaders/moonclips will revolver competitors be allowed to have available for a stage? I am guessing 4 based on 23max stage required shots.

For the Factory Stock Revolver division, it will be 4 speedloaders. For Race revolver, there is no limit on spare speedloaders/moon clips. Race revolvers will be allowed barrels up to 6.5", compensators, electronic sights, ect.

8 shot .357 and .45 revolvers will be able to compete in either race revolver or large bore pistol. For large bore pistol, they will have the same ammunition and modification limits as the pistols.

[Premieractionshooting]

There is another pilot match scheduled. It will be held at Impact Zone on September 6. The match is being hosted by West Houston Shooters. Signups will be posted at WWW.whidpa.com. Come on out and give the new sport a try.

[Premieractionshooting]

Oops, double posted. Ignore this one read^^^

Edited August 19, 2014 by Premieractionshooting

[GMB]

What is the reason for keeping with the 10 round limits in your to factory divisions, stock and modified. I think it would be nice to have a division that allows the use of our hi-cap mags for carry practice. I know I don't load my carry gun with only 10 in the mag and one in the pipe!!!! I think that is where the lack is for both IDPA and USPSA!!!!! I like your concept and look forward to giving it a go!!