TractorTed Posted January 13, 2005 Share Posted January 13, 2005 In the new rulebook, they list the .45 G.A.P. in ESP division, not CDP. Any guesses why? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Perez Posted January 13, 2005 Share Posted January 13, 2005 Because CDP is 45ACP only. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vincent Posted January 13, 2005 Share Posted January 13, 2005 This one really puzzled me. If the point of the .45 GAP was to duplicate .45 ACP ballistics and from the load data I have seen it does, I don't understand why a .45 GAP pistol would not have been moved into CDP under the new rules. Just doesn't seem right to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dcloudy777 Posted January 13, 2005 Share Posted January 13, 2005 Makes about as much sense as booting 10mm out of CDP a few years ago... Bill REALLY likes the .45ACP, and wanted it to have its own class. Dan Overcast Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kdhgl Posted January 13, 2005 Share Posted January 13, 2005 David Sevigney Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bones Posted January 13, 2005 Share Posted January 13, 2005 Balllistics aside (granted a very strong argument) perhaps the frame size figured heavily into the divisional designation. Putting 45ACP ballsitics into a G17 frame makes it a lot easier to shoot than the G21 for most people (that was the point - I understand that). Since the G21 must compete in CDP with full power loads, perhaps it was viewed as a reasonable solution. Thin ice yes, but frozen non-the-less. Or, mabye it's just that nobody except me likes you Ted. That said, take a tip from the soon-to-be-former- 625-45 ACP-shooters-in-SSR and download your rounds to ridiculosly low levels (yes, 550 fps is ridculoulsy low for smokeless powder rounds) and whip thier butts in SSP. Or suck it up, shoot it like an adult and whip thier butts in ESP. Then you can use the same big-boy loads in your 625 for ESR, and powderpuff 45 AR loads in SSR. Lots of options here. (2) guns - (4) divsions - Its ALL good Baby! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mayonaise Posted January 13, 2005 Share Posted January 13, 2005 That said, take a tip from the soon-to-be-former- 625-45 ACP-shooters-in-SSR and download your rounds to ridiculosly low levels (yes, 550 fps is ridculoulsy low for smokeless powder rounds) and whip thier butts in SSP. Or suck it up, shoot it like an adult and whip thier butts in ESP. Then you can use the same big-boy loads in your 625 for ESR, and powderpuff 45 AR loads in SSR. Lots of options here. (2) guns - (4) divsions - Its ALL good Baby! Will a .45 GAP auto loader function properly downloaded to 125-130 pf? Will a 10mm for that matter? Maybe an ECDP class will be in the future for .45 Gap and 10mm. Wouldn't bother me any. I don't even care if they let them in CDP. Too much hand wringing on the whole darn thing. Let's just shoot. Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
srf Posted January 14, 2005 Share Posted January 14, 2005 Exclusion of 45 GAP, 10mm, and 40S&W from CDP has really become a burr under my saddle. What bothers me the most is that CDP is really 45acp only class. While I love (and have several) 45's, to hold it up as THE prime example of a Custom Defensive Pistol at 165 PF is a joke. If I HAD to pick one of my pistols to bet my life on it would be my S_I with a 20 round mag stuffed 180 jhp's @ 1080 fps. OK, I wouldn't carry a hi-cap, but I feel confident that 8+1 would do the job (or 10+1 as esp legal). If I had a 10mm, I'd feel the same. What bothers me is I KNOW that Bill Wilson knows it too. I feel like he's laughing at shooters for going along with this charade. I'm done with IDPA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Thomas Posted January 14, 2005 Share Posted January 14, 2005 I've been giving this some thought lately, and I'm just about convinced that the reason CDP is .45 ACP only is that the singlestack 1911 .45 ACP is the gun that the entire sport of combat pistol shooting was built on. It's THE American combat pistol, historically important, beloved of thousands of serious shooters. But over the years in USPSA/IPSC it was pushed aside, by course design and such. The intent of CDP is to provide a safe home where those who love the 1911 .45 ACP can compete with that gun design, and that cartridge, against people armed with the same technology. And most CDP shooters seem just fine with that. Love it, actually. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ted Murphy Posted January 14, 2005 Share Posted January 14, 2005 Will a .45 GAP auto loader function properly downloaded to 125-130 pf? Shot one at about 130ish power factor. Ran pretty good. When the .45 GAP came out a friend bought it and a case of WW ammo (couldn't get brass at that time). Pulled all the bullets, discarded the powder- then made a case of downloaded ammo for gun games. Ted Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TractorTed Posted January 14, 2005 Author Share Posted January 14, 2005 Balllistics aside (granted a very strong argument) perhaps the frame size figured heavily into the divisional designation. Putting 45ACP ballsitics into a G17 frame makes it a lot easier to shoot than the G21 for most people (that was the point - I understand that). Since the G21 must compete in CDP with full power loads, perhaps it was viewed as a reasonable solution. Thin ice yes, but frozen non-the-less.Or, mabye it's just that nobody except me likes you Ted. That said, take a tip from the soon-to-be-former- 625-45 ACP-shooters-in-SSR and download your rounds to ridiculosly low levels (yes, 550 fps is ridculoulsy low for smokeless powder rounds) and whip thier butts in SSP. Or suck it up, shoot it like an adult and whip thier butts in ESP. Then you can use the same big-boy loads in your 625 for ESR, and powderpuff 45 AR loads in SSR. Lots of options here. (2) guns - (4) divsions - Its ALL good Baby! Ballistics (or balllistics, as you noted) aside? The fact that they are ballistic equivalents is exactly why they should be allowed. Glock is not the only ones making guns for this cartidge, and 1911 type guns are not the only ones allowed in CDP. Sig, Ruger, Glock, H&K, S&W, etc. all make 45s that are not 1911 type. Sure, I could use it in SSP, downloaded, and run a weaker recoil spring, but as you could tell by my shooting tonight Bones, I'm not whipping anyones butt. Besides my G34 serves me well enough, unlike your cursed wheeelgun. (Thanks again for letting me borrow it.) Do you think maybe kdhgl has a point? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted January 14, 2005 Share Posted January 14, 2005 Putting 45ACP ballsitics into a G17 frame makes it a lot easier to shoot than the G21 for most people (that was the point - I understand that). ??? People with smaller hands might be able to grip the G17-sized frame easier, but there is more felt/percieved recoil (IMO). I can't get my girlfriend to shoot my G35 with Major power factor ammo, but she has no problem running the same ammo in her large-framed G20. I think that the large framed Glocks shoot softer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bulm540 Posted January 14, 2005 Share Posted January 14, 2005 David Sevigney Bingo!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bones Posted January 14, 2005 Share Posted January 14, 2005 Actually Ted I think Duane Thomas nailed it square. ... and you're welcome. Mi pistola - su pistola. God, I wish I knew how to say revolver in Spanish... Craig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Forsyth Posted January 14, 2005 Share Posted January 14, 2005 Will a .45 GAP auto loader function properly downloaded to 125-130 pf? Will a 10mm for that matter?Maybe an ECDP class will be in the future for .45 Gap and 10mm. Wouldn't bother me any. I don't even care if they let them in CDP. Too much hand wringing on the whole darn thing. Let's just shoot. Mark Don't know about the GAP, but I did a lot of work trying to get a reliable 10mm load in the 135 to 145PF range. The short and long of it is, they do not work well down there at that level. My Delta definitely likes it above 165, 180 seems like its sweet spot. Trying the lighter loads and lighter recoil springs with that heavy slide made for a real sluggish pistol. It was much easier to get my .40 1911 running at that level than it was my 10. I can understand what Duane is saying, but to put the Colt Delta Elite with the 9 micky mouse in ESP is absurd. There are only a few of us that would compete with one, so I do not think we would steal any of the .45ACP's thunder. (edited for spelling) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jkelly Posted January 14, 2005 Share Posted January 14, 2005 In the new rulebook, they list the .45 G.A.P. in ESP division, not CDP. Any guesses why? Why would the manufacturer of Classic 1911 handguns in 45 ACP not allow 45 GAP guns in CDP? Hmmm, I guess I'd have to think on that. Business is business after all. Respectfully, jdkelly Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mayonaise Posted January 15, 2005 Share Posted January 15, 2005 David Sevigney Bingo!!!! FYI Dave Sevigny spanked the SSP field with a G37 (.45 GAP) at the 2004 AL State match using 185gr Gold Dots (194pf). It will always come down to be more about the shooter than what caliber or platform they are shooting. I do believe that Duane is spot on! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Thomas Posted January 15, 2005 Share Posted January 15, 2005 David Sevigney Bingo!!!! I take it this comment is meant to express the idea that IDPA HQ is trying to "protect" the home of the 1911 .45 ACP from Dave Sevigny and his .45 GAP G37. That's an interesting theory. It would be interesting to hear what Rob Leatham has to say about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jkelly Posted January 15, 2005 Share Posted January 15, 2005 Duane Thomas, The intent of CDP is to provide a safe home where those who love the 1911 .45 ACP can compete with that gun design, and that cartridge, against people armed with the same technology.---Duane Thomas Duane the New Rules for CDP states that (among other things): Handguns permitted for use in this division must: A. Be semi-automatic. B. Be .45 ACP caliber There is no requirement for the firearm to be a 1911, so other types of guns that meet ALL the requirements for CDP can be used in CDP while still allowing a "...safe home..." for the 1911. So the real question is, as Tractor Ted alluded to, why isn't the 45 GAP included in CDP? What is the difference in a bullet leaving the barrel of any CDP legal gun (1911 or other) at a 165PF or above, if it was shot from a .45 ACP case or a .45 GAP case? There is none, or so I think. Logically, including the .45 GAP in CDP seems like a no brainer. I would guess that its omission was either a mistake or there are other factors in the decision that we are not privy to. Respectfully, jdkelly Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Thomas Posted January 15, 2005 Share Posted January 15, 2005 Duane the New Rules for CDP states that (among other things):Handguns permitted for use in this division must: A. Be semi-automatic. B. Be .45 ACP caliber There is no requirement for the firearm to be a 1911, so other types of guns that meet ALL the requirements for CDP can be used in CDP while still allowing a "...safe home..." for the 1911. Actually, I knew that. So the real question is, as Tractor Ted alluded to, why isn't the 45 GAP included in CDP? I think I already answered that question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jkelly Posted January 15, 2005 Share Posted January 15, 2005 Duane, I think I already answered that question.---Duane Thomas If that is indeed the intent of the IDPA in CDP, it would have been much more clear had HQ just said as much, directly. It's unfortunate that the (non-gamming full power load) .45 GAP shooters will have to shoot against 125 PF 9mms. Looking at some of the New Rules from the vantage point of not being and IDPA/gun industry insider, some of these new rules just don't make sense. Respectfully, jdkelly Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Thomas Posted January 15, 2005 Share Posted January 15, 2005 It's a mad, mad, mad, mad world! BWAH-HAH-HAH-HAH-HAH!! Bring on the IDPA match, bay-bee. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jkelly Posted January 15, 2005 Share Posted January 15, 2005 Duane, Is it meditation or medication time again? Respectfully, jdkelly Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Perez Posted January 16, 2005 Share Posted January 16, 2005 Duane,I think I already answered that question.---Duane Thomas It's unfortunate that the (non-gamming full power load) .45 GAP shooters will have to shoot against 125 PF 9mms. Respectfully, jdkelly on the other hand - what honor is there in winning using mouse fart ammo , when second place used full power loads ? Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jkelly Posted January 16, 2005 Share Posted January 16, 2005 on the other hand - what honor is there in winning using mouse fart ammo , when second place used full power loads ?---Mark Perez My thoughts almost exactly Mark. Why would IDPA HQ force .45 GAP to shoot in a division with 9mm if it could be shot in a division with almost identical ballistics as in CDP? Which brings us back to TractorTed and wondering why IDPA put .45 GAP is in ESP and not CDP. HONOR: I have a problem equating the lack of Honor with someone playing inside the stated rules of the game. But using the idea behind your quote, and equating anything but the very highest possible PF ammo as "mouse fart", one could easily dismiss those people who shoot anything else as dishonorable gamers. I guess that means using anything less then say .44 mag full power loads (if this is the highest PF ammo that could fix into a legal SSR gun) in SSR and you'd be a dishonorable gamer. While I would NOT question the honor of someone using a .38 splc or a 357 mag in SSR (even if they are full power loads), in some sense by not shooting the very biggest bore possible, they are gaming. Respectfully, jdkelly Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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