Help me define a reloading

[teros135]

<sigh> My head hurts. This seems to have become the usual overly long, pedantic, arguing-about-semantics-and-fine-points-of-language discussion that makes newcomers crazy and doesn't get around to providing a clear answer to the question. I wish we could simply agree on what's right and fair, within the context of the rule book (as written by mortals and reasonably read by same), discuss it within the context of the USPSA principles of safety, efficiency, and fairness, and not pick it to death.

It's a "mandatory reload" situation, right? Of course it creates an unfair advantage to just drop the mag to where it clears the mag well and push it right back in. (I'll bet my 2.5 second reloads would become more like 0.8 if I did that. I'll check that at the range on Friday...)

Without all the nitpicking, it seems clear that everybody (well, almost everybody) understands that a "mandatory reload" comes from the belt or another source other than what's already in the gun. Of course it would take longer to pick up a mag from the ground (especially with old knees ) or put the one from the gun into a mag holder and then reload with it, so there wouldn't be a competitive advantage there vs. the normal "belt" reload.

It's kind of like the discussion at a recent match about whether you could put your off hand on the shooting wrist or forearm during a "strong hand" or "weak hand" exercise. The rules apparently don't actually say you can't "touch" the shooting arm/hand with the other, so some folks are trying to game that one and use additional support from the other hand/arm. "Strong (or weak) hand only" sounds pretty obvious to me.

Just sayin'.

Edited July 29, 2014 by teros135

[Thomas H]

I was the RO behind Chris when this happened. At first I called Chris on this so we stepped back after the scoring and looked at the rules. As Chris says, there is no definitive statement in the rule book to rule against him. I seem to recall in the back of my tiny little mind a rule years back that stated that all reloads must come from the belt unless the WSB stated otherwise. After searching, I couldn't find it in the rule book. This could be put to rest by adding such a statement in the rule book. I'm a bit surprised that somebody hasn't done this at a major match and then pushed the issue after being penalized.

Pat

The problem with that is that currently, we allow people in the middle of a stage to go back and pick up (and use) magazines that were discarded or dropped earlier without penalty. Your new rule would mean that if a mag fell off your belt, you couldn't still pick it up and use it.

Overall in this thread, I don't see the real issue. The reload is initiated with the magazine being removed from the gun. Reloading is when we add additional ammunition to the gun. Since the gun started with a certain amount of ammunition then we started the reload, you obviously cannot add additional ammunition to the gun by re-inserting the same magazine. After all, we consider the ammunition in the gun from prior to the reload to after the reload.

As such, it seems obvious to me (and we have a ruling in Front Sight backing this clearly, if I recall correctly) that you can't simply re-introduce the same magazine. That is not adding additional ammunition.

For mandatory reloads, you can't drop the magazine to the ground and pick it back up, nor can you put it in your pouch and then use it immediately again, either. Again----not adding addition ammunition.

Could they pick up a magazine from off the ground that was used in a previous string? Only if it was specified in the WSB that magazines may start somewhere other than on the belt.

If that screws someone over in a string of fire on a classifier, they probably should have brought up more magazines.

On any other stage without mandatory reloads, this argument is irrelevant. IMO.

[Miranda]

interesting lawyering.

ok.

yall seem to agree:

current magazine dumped and

ammo in a magazine from the belt is

reloading.

not agreed:

Retrieving a previously dumped magazine is not reloading.

Using the same magazine is not reloading.

the disagreements seem to revolve around

getting rounds into the pipe and how many rounds are in the magazine.

Time seems to be a factor in re-using the same magazine.

and there seems to be a concern over 'gaming' the score.

If you want a simple rule....

You may use a magazine only once in the course of fire.

(pssst....bring a spare...)

I have to ask.

Under the current rules, am I permitted to add rounds to the magazine?

and then carry on firing?

If I dump a magazine with 5 rounds left in it

and use a new off the belt magazine with 1 round is that 'reloading?'

I can see that the logic in the rules may have a few holes...

not a faster path, but definitely logic holes.

[teros135]

Under the current rules, am I permitted to add rounds to the magazine?

and then carry on firing?

Can't see why not. It would certainly add time to the COF and wouldn't gain advantage (rather, the reverse...)

If I dump a magazine with 5 rounds left in it

and use a new off the belt magazine with 1 round is that 'reloading?'

Sounds like it would, but would only be useful if you needed just that one round for the current array or to finish the last shot of the COF. I don't understand why one would dump 5 rounds and replace with 1 unless it was a mandatory reload (with only two rounds needed for the subsequent targets, perhaps 2 steel or a single paper target left, in order to satisfy a WSB for a mandatory reload?)

(Edited because red was waaaay too bright!)

Edited July 29, 2014 by teros135

[Jammer1911]

I have a reloading question that is drastically different in nature. Mods if this needs to be a new topic please excuse my intrusion and move me.

COF

8 Metric targets

Gun loaded and holstered

Facing down range hands above shoulders

On signal draw and engage targets with two rounds each performing a mandartory reload before last shot fired.

Competitor draws changes mags and fires all rounds to complete the COF.

Is this considered a reload if no shots are fired?

I have my opinion just looking to see how others would view this.

Thank you for any and all opinions.

Mark

[teros135]

Well, that's what the WSB said to do. A "mandatory reload before last shot fired".

The stage designer may have intended for the instruction to prevent someone from shooting the stage, then reloading off the clock (back end fix) but didn't think about someone doing a front end reload. Betcha they'll clarify it the next time.

[Nik Habicht]

I have a reloading question that is drastically different in nature. Mods if this needs to be a new topic please excuse my intrusion and move me.

COF

8 Metric targets

Gun loaded and holstered

Facing down range hands above shoulders

On signal draw and engage targets with two rounds each performing a mandartory reload before last shot fired.

Competitor draws changes mags and fires all rounds to complete the COF.

Is this considered a reload if no shots are fired?

I have my opinion just looking to see how others would view this.

Thank you for any and all opinions.

Mark

Depending on the distance to the target, requiring the reload before last shot may not provide enough incentive to actually reload....

Locally I usually see "A mandatory reload must be performed anytime after the shooter engages the first target and before engaging he last target."

[Miranda]

If I dump a magazine with 5 rounds left in it

and use a new off the belt magazine with 1 round is that 'reloading?'

Sounds like it would, but would only be useful if you needed just that one round for the current array or to finish the last shot of the COF. I don't understand why one would dump 5 rounds and replace with 1 unless it was a mandatory reload (with only two rounds needed for the subsequent targets, perhaps 2 steel or a single paper target left, in order to satisfy a WSB for a mandatory reload?)

this will get a little long if I don't snip a little....

the question was to help point out the flaw in the logic of 'adding' ammo to the pistol.

If the rule is; 'Reloads must come from belt' it really ignores the lack of rules about magazines

being full or any such condition.

It is a logic hole in the rules if a reload must have more rounds than the dumped magazine.

What the 'must reload' rule is trying to do is not actually stated in the rule.

... a different logic puzzle BTW

The problem was that some one had an 'oops' moment.

Believe me, everyone will have an 'oops' moment if it means saving time.

Don't let anyone fool you, time is what you don't want to waste in the competition.

so back to what to do.

if you are only carrying two mags and one is empty....

a mandatory reload is a problem.

picture it.... drop the current magazine and stuff a round

from the Barney Collection into the empty mag?

.... well that can be a study in grace under fire, and mostly it will cost time.

you pay for the earlier 'oops' I suppose.

miranda

[JAFO]

While I agree that dropping a mag into your hand and immediately reinserting it is not in the spirit of the rules (dare I say that? ), I had always thought the "additional ammunition" was in relation to the one that may or may not be in the chamber. I have no problem with someone retrieved a mag off the ground or placing the one from the gun into a pouch and then reloading with it. I can't see any possible competitive advantage to it.

With regard to the mentioned Front Sight ruling on this, are the Front Sight rulings posted online anywhere? The NROI rulings page does not have anything listed regarding additional ammo or reloading.

[Nimitz]

Why is this thread still going on? Post #3 should have ended the discussion .... As can be heard in any courtroom around the country ..." asked and answered ..."

You all should be doing something useful like dry firing instead of continuing to beat this dead horse ....

Edited July 31, 2014 by Nimitz

[EkuJustice]

Give the procedurals and move on. I don't see a 10.6.1 DQ in this situation mentioned as I wouldn't see it as trying to cheat a stage as it was a malfunction the last mag used and the shooter was basically in survival mode as the classifier was already shot so give the procedurals and move on. It just dosent scream trying to pull a fast one on anyone or trying to cheat so a DQ wouldn't be warranted