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Help me define a reloading


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The word additional is not defined in the rule book.

What would you call ammo that isn't in the gun? I would call it additional ammo.

ad·di·tion·al
əˈdiSHənl/
adjective
  1. added, extra, or supplementary to what is already present or available.
    Pretty clear. Common usage of the English language. We are not Bill Clinton, and if it gets there, I WILL stop shooting UPSA entirely.
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The word additional is not defined in the rule book. What would you call ammo that isn't in the gun? I would call it additional ammo.

ad·di·tion·al

əˈdiSHənl/

adjective

  • added, extra, or supplementary to what is already present or available.

    Pretty clear. Common usage of the English language. We are not Bill Clinton, and if it gets there, I WILL stop shooting UPSA entirely.

Right on the money, words have meanings. Not every term has to be defined in the rule book. Prone is not defined either, does that mean standing upright qualifies as shooting prone because the RO can't point to the definition in the rule book?

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So Mark I'll ask you too, because I'm a bit confused. If I remove a mag, put it in a pouch, and then use it again, is that additional ammo or not? Does using it mean I'm not reloading?

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So Mark I'll ask you too, because I'm a bit confused. If I remove a mag, put it in a pouch, and then use it again, is that additional ammo or not? Does using it mean I'm not reloading?

If you put a magazine back in a pouch and then use a different magazine, the one you had put in the pouch could then be used to reload.

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What is the practical, logical, or competitive difference? If I use it without using a new one first what rule am I breaking? If it isn't reloading, can I have my finger on the trigger?

Edited by Vlad
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From your first post Ctay,

Reloading .........................The replenishment or the insertion of additional ammunition into a firearm. The reload is not complete until the magazine/speed loader is fully inserted and the firearm is in battery, (slide forward or cylinder closed and ready to fire).

When I asked about this it was made very clear to me that additional means other than the original ammo removed from the gun

Sarge - that is the part I was thinking about as well but it does seem rather strained when you start continuing the train of thought. For example - Can I reuse a magazine that I dropped in a previous string? IE that ammunition has already been in that gun therefore it is not additional. When does the "history" of the ammunition and magazine end so that it can become additional again? "Additional" isn't defined.

I'm thinking that we are missing a definition here. Mandatory Reload probably needs to be defined.

@bikerburgess - no one was trying to game the stage in this example - just no alternative to finish the stage when only one mag was available.

In 13 years in the sport I've never considered additional ammunition to be anything other than any ammo other than what was in the gun before the reload....

In other word, the magazine in use does not meet the definition of additional ammunition.....

Now if a competitor initiated a reload, dumped the mag to the ground, then realized he had nothing on his belt, and safely retrieved it, I probably wouldn't have the heart to issue a procedural, as he satisfied all the steps in what we call a reload.

He dumped the mag that was in the gun.

He retrieved a mag from his belt or the ground or a prop or a (legal) pocket

He inserted that mag into the gun

Dropping it in your hand and then reinserting it into the gun would have me looking at a 10.6.1 DQ for cheating....

Prudent practice is to come to the line of the classifier as if it were any other stage. If you routinely bring 6 mags on your belt, do so here, even if the classifier is Bang & Clang.....

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2) "Everyone would be doing this" .. well maybe they should. Allow me to point out an absurd example. Lets say you are one of those ultra skilled people who can shoot El Pres in 3.5 second with all A's. 60 points in 3.5sec is 17.14HF. Lets say you reload if 0.8 seconds and you skip it, 60-10 is 50pt in 2.7sec is now 18.51HF

wouldn't it be 60 - 60 = 0.00 hf? Procedural per shot fired. I'm guessing that's why people don't skip it.

Sorry I missed that part of El Pres. I withdraw my absurd case.

I would like to know if everyone is ok with placing the mag in the mag pouch and taking out again. If not, why not, what possible adventage could be gained?

I'd be ok with that in your hypothetical example. I have no idea if the RMI corps would share my approach.....

Now, I seem to remember hearing about an incident a long time ago, where a competitor initiated the mandatory reload by dropping a mag on the ground from his mag pouch, and then catching and reinserting the mag in the gun.....

Whatever we do, we need to be cognizant of that possibility....

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Objectively I think we all agree that removing the mag just enought to clear the mag well and re-inserting it is against the spirit of the classifiers and would incur a penalty of some sort. Mark's earlier solution I think is very valid.

What I'm trying to determine is where we draw the line.

Lets gets a bit precise about this. Lets look at the definition again:

Reloading
.........................
The replenishment or the insertion of additional ammunition into a firearm.
The reload is not complete until the magazine/speed loader is fully
inserted and the firearm is in battery, (slide forward or cylinder closedand ready to fire


We haven't talked about what replentishment means yet, because there is an OR there, but lets ignore that for a now. Lets just worry about the second part, because everyone is talking about additional. Additional to what? Is isn't additional to my body, I had it all along. It isn't additional to the world, it was here before, so it must mean it is additional to the firearm. If I am inserting a magazine in the firearm, then I must not have one in there already. At the time I perform this action ANY ammunition is additional to the firearm, because it isn't it in.

All that is solipsistic in the context of the classifier, because of the whole spirit and intent Mark refered to earlier, but is isn't really during the rest of match. I say again, if removing the magazine from the gun and putting it back in is NOT reloading, what is it? If I holster the mag and reuse it, what is the definition of the action I've undertaken? If it isn't a reload can I have my finger on the trigger?

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If you start with a loaded, holstered gun and then got asked where is your additional/spare ammo what would you say? In my mag pouches, I don't think I could say in my gun. Rule 5.2.4 also says that after the start signal, spare ammunition, magazines shall be carried in retention devices attached to competitors belt and specifically designed for that purpose. So I would read that as not being able to carry spare ammo in your gun, even though it is attached to a holster on your belt.

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From your first post Ctay,

Reloading .........................The replenishment or the insertion of additional ammunition into a firearm. The reload is not complete until the magazine/speed loader is fully inserted and the firearm is in battery, (slide forward or cylinder closed and ready to fire).

When I asked about this it was made very clear to me that additional means other than the original ammo removed from the gun

Playing a devils hand here, but... any cof, you drop a partial mag, reload from the belt, continue cof....then drop the current mag, pick up the partial mag off the ground, and in the process of inserting it, you pop one off into the berm.

Using the logic that to reload, the mag must come off the belt and have new ammo or added ammo in it, then the shot fired was not an ad during a reload, as the process during which the shot occurred was not by definition a reload.....

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LOL! What's good for the goose is good for the gander. :)

As much as I love your logic, 10.4.3 also covers "loading". Since the shot did not occur while "reloading", but while "loading", then still considered an AD.

Edited by Skydiver
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I would have to say not the same comparison. The original question was around a mandatory reload per a requirement in a WSB. In the instance as described you can shoot one drop a mag, re-insert it after every shot if you like. Drop a mag on the ground, pick it up and repeat, as long as it is done safely. All of these though I think are part of reloading. As soon as the round goes off there are several decisions to make. I guess it could be argued that maybe if the round goes near a target that it is not a DQ but. If you are bent over picking up a mag, are inserting a mag I would say DQ. Rules 10.4.6 a shot which occurs during movement, except while shooting at targets; rule 10.5.9 failure to keep finger out of trigger guard during reloading or 10.5.10 failure to keep finger out of trigger guard during movement. Just my opinion, ultimately it becomes the RM call.

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I was the RO behind Chris when this happened. At first I called Chris on this so we stepped back after the scoring and looked at the rules. As Chris says, there is no definitive statement in the rule book to rule against him. I seem to recall in the back of my tiny little mind a rule years back that stated that all reloads must come from the belt unless the WSB stated otherwise. After searching, I couldn't find it in the rule book. This could be put to rest by adding such a statement in the rule book. I'm a bit surprised that somebody hasn't done this at a major match and then pushed the issue after being penalized.

Pat

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You can not add ammo if it is the same ammo. Just English.

Sure, add to what? The momemnt I removed the magazine from the gun, it is no longer part of the gun. The gun has one round max in it. Any ammo I'm putting in the gun is adding ammo. I know english is not my native language, but add is a pretty simple word I think I got a handle on.

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I was the RO behind Chris when this happened. At first I called Chris on this so we stepped back after the scoring and looked at the rules. As Chris says, there is no definitive statement in the rule book to rule against him. I seem to recall in the back of my tiny little mind a rule years back that stated that all reloads must come from the belt unless the WSB stated otherwise. After searching, I couldn't find it in the rule book. This could be put to rest by adding such a statement in the rule book. I'm a bit surprised that somebody hasn't done this at a major match and then pushed the issue after being penalized.

Pat

I would bet that it has not been done at a major because they are pretty sure they would lose. Rule 5.2.4 says all spare ammo must be carried in retention devices on the belt..

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Now if a competitor initiated a reload, dumped the mag to the ground, then realized he had nothing on his belt, and safely retrieved it, I probably wouldn't have the heart to issue a procedural, as he satisfied all the steps in what we call a reload.

He dumped the mag that was in the gun.

He retrieved a mag from his belt or the ground or a prop or a (legal) pocket

He inserted that mag into the gun

Dropping it in your hand and then reinserting it into the gun would have me looking at a 10.6.1 DQ for cheating....

Prudent practice is to come to the line of the classifier as if it were any other stage. If you routinely bring 6 mags on your belt, do so here, even if the classifier is Bang & Clang.....

This seems like a pretty reasonable view. The whole scenario seems like a bizarrely unusual situation. The competitor is already screwed from the malfunction, so any additional procedurals are going to have pretty minimal screwing effect.

If you put the mag back in your belt and then take it out again, I'm totally cool with it, regardless of whatever the definition of 'additional' is thought to be. I bet you will remember to come to the line prepared next time too.

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I'm a bit surprised that somebody hasn't done this at a major match and then pushed the issue after being penalized.

I would be a bit surprised if an experienced shooter at a major match showed up to the line with only 2 mags for a classifier with a mandatory reload. That is a total rookie move.

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